The Christian Right and the Rise of American Fascism

[AliEnvy]

So you're still developing organs that you need that you didn't have the day you were born? Wow.

Since every cell currently in my body didn't exist when I was born, and I lost a few permanently in my late teen and early 20s wink: ), yeah, you could say on some level I'm still developing.

 

[BVS]

Since every cell currently in my body didn't exist when I was born, and I lost a few permanently in my late teen and early 20s wink: ), yeah, you could say on some level I'm still developing.

I said organs, not cells.

You know like if you didn't need ears until you were 20 and then actually developed this new organ called ears, then that analogy would work. But it doesn't.

 

[randhail]

Organs are made up of cells though. They are constantly developing. How many times have we heard about tv and other things "effecting the development of a child's brain?" Sex organs are not fully developed until we hit puberty.

 

[AliEnvy]

Anyway...if the embryo isn't human life until a certain stage of pregnancy then abortion really is just another garden variety form of birth control (albeit invasive).

So why bother investing in prevention and counselling support.

 

[BVS]

Organs are made up of cells though. They are constantly developing. How many times have we heard about tv and other things "effecting the development of a child's brain?" Sex organs are not fully developed until we hit puberty.

Did you read my whole post? Have you grown any new organs needed for survival since birth? No.

You have everything you need once you're born, yes you age, mature, etc but you aren't still growing new organs.

This talk is growing into playing semantics. It's pretty basic science, a fetus that's developing that can't even survive without the womb is not a child.

 

[BVS]

Anyway...if the embryo isn't human life until a certain stage of pregnancy then abortion really is just another garden variety form of birth control (albeit invasive).

So why bother investing in prevention and counselling support.

That makes absolutely no sense. So you're saying instead of a condom just have surgery?

Please, let's use a little logic.

 

[randhail]

Did you read my whole post? Have you grown any new organs needed for survival since birth? No.

You have everything you need once you're born, yes you age, mature, etc but you aren't still growing new organs.

This talk is growing into playing semantics. It's pretty basic science, a fetus that's developing that can't even survive without the womb is not a child.

Oh now you said "grown," if you had originally said that, instead of developed, it would've made sense.

 

[AliEnvy]

That makes absolutely no sense. So you're saying instead of a condom just have surgery?

Please, let's use a little logic.

You're quick to dismiss but more and more women who have the option would rather have surgery via c-section than give birth.

There's nothing logical about it.

 

[BorderGirl]

As for Border Girl, I'm not even going to dignify her "when did your heart become so hard" comment with a response.

This was meant as a general question for all of us to ponder.
It's not even exclusive to the question of abortion since that is just one of many of life's challenges.
I think it's a valid question and worthwhile exercise every now and then to stop and check our responses to people and issues around us. Do we nourish, affirm and evoke the best qualities in people, etc.?

 

[BVS]

You're quick to dismiss but more and more women who have the option would rather have surgery via c-section than give birth.

There's nothing logical about it.

What does that have to do with it? Opting for a c-section and using abortion purely as birth control are two entirely different things.




This thread is losing it.

 

[BorderGirl]

so pregnancy is punishment? is that how we are to view an unwanted pregnancy? a cross to bear? a scarlet letter?

No. It's a blessing that you may not recognize.

~Open up to the love of God
To the love of He who made the blind to see~
-lyrics by Bono

 

[AliEnvy]

What does that have to do with it? Opting for a c-section and using abortion purely as birth control are two entirely different things.

This thread is losing it.

Oh for pete's sake...you compared the use of a condom to voluntary surgery as needing a little logic. I offered an analogy of the lack of logic in a example of choosing surgery over the normal and usual alternative.

Better now?

 

[BVS]

Oh for pete's sake...you compared the use of a condom to voluntary surgery as needing a little logic. I offered an analogy of the lack of logic in a example of choosing surgery over the normal and usual alternative.

Better now?

No I'm not better, because that analogy is still useless.

You said:

really is just another garden variety form of birth control

Condom painless and cheap. The pill fairly inexpensive and little side effects.

You're saying this is comparable to having surgery, possibly a few times a year? Something painful and a lot more costly than a condom.

How is this even comparable to opting to have a alternative method when you are already prepared to give birth either way and you only have to have the procedure each time you have a child.

Seriously they are not even close.


Until there is some intelligent discussion I'm outta here.

 

[AliEnvy]

Until there is some intelligent discussion I'm outta here.

Until you drop the unnecessary, condescending attitude, please don't bother coming back.

 

[Irvine511]

No. It's a blessing that you may not recognize.

well, when we have universal health care and free child care, then let's talk.

i appreciate all your good intentions, but there's a very harsh reality out there.

i think there are many, many women who might rightly slap you across the face if you were to tell them that. it sounds like you don't respect the amount of thought and emotional investment each woman puts into whatever decision regarding an unplanned pregnancy.

 

[Irvine511]

~Open up to the love of God
To the love of He who made the blind to see~
-lyrics by Bono

and you realize that bono is pro-choice, yes?

 

[nbcrusader]

 

[AliEnvy]

Condom painless and cheap. The pill fairly inexpensive and little side effects.

You're saying this is comparable to having surgery, possibly a few times a year? Something painful and a lot more costly than a condom.

I'm not suggesting that routine abortion would be anyone's usual approach but it's always there as a last resort.

I'm thinking that someone in the throes of passion without proper protection who views the first several months of pregnancy as meaningless (male or female) is less likely to stop and use protection than someone who views abortion as killing.

Short term pleasure usually wins out over the gamble of pain later on.

 

[AliEnvy]

it sounds like you don't respect the amount of thought and emotional investment each woman puts into whatever decision regarding an unplanned pregnancy.

Really though, what emotional investment is there unless a woman believes there is life inside her?

If a 10 week old fetus isn't alive and she doesn't want a child, there's really no need to fuss.

 

[BVS]

I'm not suggesting that routine abortion would be anyone's usual approach but it's always there as a last resort.

But that's exactly what your post said, that's why the analogy made no sense.

I'm thinking that someone in the throes of passion without proper protection who views the first several months of pregnancy as meaningless (male or female) is less likely to stop and use protection than someone who views abortion as killing.

Short term pleasure usually wins out over the gamble of pain later on.

And no, this isn't true. I've never had sex where birth control wasn't used, even in the throes of passion. No one wants to face abortion, and very few enter into abortion lightly. Your judgement of those who are pro-choice are grossly and overtly condescending and incorrect. This is exactly why I had the tone of which I had before, I apologize.

 

[BVS]

Really though, what emotional investment is there unless a woman believes there is life inside her?

If a 10 week old fetus isn't alive and she doesn't want a child, there's really no need to fuss.

First of all, have you ever had surgery? Surgery alone comes with some emotional investment.

Secondly, it may not be a child, but the fetus does grow into a child. Facing that potential has emotional investment.

 

[BorderGirl]

and you realize that bono is pro-choice, yes?

He's also said: "I don't set myself up as any kind of 'Christian.' — I don't feel comfortable with that badge," People can't help but wonder, "Is Bono a part of the (Christian) Body or not?"
While his comments smack of flavorless salt, the rock star claims to be salt nonetheless.
A lot of really good hearted people support abortion. Well-meaning friends and acquaintances may recommend abortion as a solution to a difficult situation.

 

[AliEnvy]

But that's exactly what your post said, that's why the analogy made no sense.

No, my post said it would be another garden variety form of birth control. And to use the analogy you keep snarling at me on, csection has become a garden variety birthing method. Regardless of the pain and risks.

No one wants to face abortion, and very few enter into abortion lightly. Your judgement of those who are pro-choice are grossly and overtly condescending and incorrect. This is exactly why I had the tone of which I had before, I apologize.

In case you missed it earlier, I am pro-choice. I am challenging other pro-choicers on the notion of the beginning of life and if that has come across as condescending and judgemental, I'm sorry, I'm not really sure how much more delicately I could have put it.

It would just be nice to throw out ideas about life, unwanted pregnancy and abortion without descending into right and wrong.

 

[Diemen]

tangent, but...

He's also said: "I don't set myself up as any kind of 'Christian.' — I don't feel comfortable with that badge," People can't help but wonder, "Is Bono a part of the (Christian) Body or not?"

If by Christian Body you mean "American Conservative Religious" Body, then no, he is not a part of that body. Bono has expanded on those two quotes plenty, essentially saying that his faith is not at issue, rather his comfort with organized religion and what organized religion has done to Christianity and how it's perceived in the world. That's why he's uncomortable with being labeled a Christian, because it's come to mean far more than a recognition of one's faith.





And now back to the regularly scheduled abortion debate.

 

[BorderGirl]

Re: tangent, but...

If by Christian Body you mean "American Conservative Religious" Body, then no, he is not a part of that body. Bono has expanded on those two quotes plenty, essentially saying that his faith is not at issue, rather his comfort with organized religion and what organized religion has done to Christianity and how it's perceived in the world. That's why he's uncomortable with being labeled a Christian, because it's come to mean far more than a recognition of one's faith.

By his own words he's a "believer", a Christian--- a follower of Christ. For the sake of his poverty work I'm glad all these organized religions are organized. They make his job of visiting them a little easier.
It's tidy to have things in one place

 

[BorderGirl]

I am about as disillusioned with liberals as I am conservatives. Conservatives just happen to have the power to legislate their hysteria at the present moment. If liberals get back in power someday, I'll be waiting to rip them to pieces too. Politics bite.

Melon

Though I think the problem that Fundamentalist Christians have taken over the right is sometimes balanced by Atheists that have taken over the left.
Why is it that morality seems to have been hijacked by the right? Where is the left on some of these issues?
I hate labels.

 

[nbcrusader]

Re: tangent, but...

If by Christian Body you mean "American Conservative Religious" Body, then no, he is not a part of that body. Bono has expanded on those two quotes plenty, essentially saying that his faith is not at issue, rather his comfort with organized religion and what organized religion has done to Christianity and how it's perceived in the world. That's why he's uncomortable with being labeled a Christian, because it's come to mean far more than a recognition of one's faith.

I think Bono is trying to avoid being "claimed" by any group - which is as much a matter of saying he is not part of a group as it is saying he is part of a group.

 

[BVS]

Though I think the problem that Fundamentalist Christians have taken over the right is sometimes balanced by Atheists that have taken over the left.

Athiests or people of faith, who know the lines of church and state?

 

[BorderGirl]

Athiests or people of faith, who know the lines of church and state?

They've got exist somewhere out there.

 

[BVS]

They've got exist somewhere out there.

Yes, but they're a pretty small minority in America.

But even so I don't see how it would be of any concern at all?!

We live in a country where religion isn't even suppose to be involved in politics or policy.