The Bigly 2016 US Presidential Election Thread, Part XV

[DaveC]

He was a private citizen talking in hypotheticals. You'll hear worse on a middle school playground.

no, you actually won't hear eighth graders encouraging each other to grab women by the pussy if you take a stroll down to the local middle school at recess. because only incurable assholes, literal psychopaths, hardened criminals, and out-of-control narcissists talk like that in real life.

shame on you for pretending like all men talk this way and acting like it's nothing. we talk about women and sex (of course) but the vast majority of us actually care about consent, believe it or not. everyone i know and respect would never talk about grabbing a woman and not caring whether she's okay with it, and anyone who did would be immediately told to fuck off as emphatically as possible by me and my friends without hesitation.

i have been in a shit ton of locker rooms and playgrounds in my life and never once have i heard talk about rape or even anything close to it , so screw you for trying to paint me and other men with that brush.

 

[LemonMelon]

For what it's worth, this is a position I can completely and totally respect. I think I come off more hard-line anti-Clinton than I am. It's not, "If you're voting for Clinton you're a mindless shill who doesn't love AMURKA!" with me. I just want more people to actually walk through the value judgment they're making, like you did, instead of just trying to whitewash what is a very, very sordid history.

I have grown to pretty much hate the Clintons. I think they're corrupt on levels that could only be considered Nixonian if you wanted to be quite unfair to Nixon.

But the other person is a fuckin reality tv star. I completely understand your moral calculus, here.

I only really lose patience when people who are ostensibly "liberal" in a classical sense, and who generally bemoan corruption and cold calculation for gain at to the detriment of those less powerful, suddenly begin shedding their principles like a sweater in the sun the minute the Democratic candidate was Clinton.

One minute it was, "Citizens United is ruining this country!" and now it's, "but can you really PROVE it was a quid pro quo...?"

Your mental calculus is totally fair to me.

Thanks.

I get bunched in with the Bernie Bros around here and that's fine with me, though I recognize his enormous flaws as a candidate. He had fewer enemies than Clinton, which is helpful, but his relative extremism (what a lovely oxymoron) begged for the public to push balance with a continually conservative House. It would be reasonable to expect deadlock after deadlock. This increasingly split country is not ready to go all in on one political ideal.

That said, I do care deeply about baggage and about donors. I care about who works with whom and where money goes because I think that speaks more loudly than words and translates to action more readily. Bernie's past and present intentions were less murky to me and I value that. Even if he had some foolish/impossible to implement policies, at least I believed the guy could construct a decent cabinet full of forward-thinking people that would possibly make a difference in the long term. I can't confirm that, but it's what I saw at the time.

I am a very principled liberal. Maybe too principled for those who believe not voting for those of your own general political persuasion is a vote for the opposition. I respect that position. Thankfully, I'm not in a swing state so it's not a matter I have to wrestle with.

I'll breathe a sigh of relief if Hillary wins. But there is a hell of a lot of work to do after that.

 

[Oregoropa]

no, you actually won't hear eighth graders encouraging each other to grab women by the pussy if you take a stroll down to the local middle school at recess. because only complete assholes and narcissists talk like that.

shame on you for pretending like all men talk this way and acting like it's nothing. we talk about women (of course) but the vast majority of us actually care about consent, believe it or not. everyone i know and respect would never talk about grabbing a woman and not caring whether she's okay with it, and anyone who did would be immediately told to fuck off as emphatically as possible by me and my friends without hesitation.

i have been in a shit ton of locker rooms in my life and never once have i heard talk about rape, so screw you for trying to paint me and other good men with that brush.

Like I said some members of the forum are Grievance Merchants playing Social Justice Bingo.

I'm not attacking you so don't play the victim. We can a sociological conversation without you assuming I'm an ass grabbing scoundrel.

In this forum we like to connect the candidate to the poster by some kind of personal assimilation. Where Oregoropa's takes on Trump's sliver of personality.

Does that mean that my friends in here who are of an opposing take on the worst qualities of Hillary? Never made that attachment. At least in forum decorum. ( Many would agree they would not those qualities )

According to some in FYM I am a fascist, misogynist, xenophobe, marginalizer, by association and buzzword of the week. Oh well.




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[DaveC]

Thanks.

I get bunched in with the Bernie Bros around here and that's fine with me, though I recognize his enormous flaws as a candidate. He had fewer enemies than Clinton, which is helpful, but his relative extremism (what a lovely oxymoron) begged for the public to push balance with a continually conservative House. It would be reasonable to expect deadlock after deadlock. This increasingly split country is not ready to go all in on one political ideal.

That said, I do care deeply about baggage and about donors. I care about who works with whom and where money goes because I think that speaks more loudly than words and translates to action more readily. Bernie's past and present intentions were less murky to me and I value that. Even if he had some foolish/impossible to implement policies, at least I believed the guy could construct a decent cabinet full of forward-thinking people.

I am a very principled liberal. Maybe too principled for those who believe not voting for those of your own general political persuasion is a vote for the opposition. I respect that position. Thankfully, I'm not in a swing state so it's not a matter I have to wrestle with.

sure all candidates have their sins by the time they're able to run for president. but if you give a whisper of a shit about the legitimacy of the american democracy and its historical values, i just don't understand how the choice this time isn't the most obvious in at least a generation.

 

[DaveC]

In this forum we like to connect the candidate to the poster by some kind of personal assimilation. Where Oregoropa's takes on Trump's sliver of personality.

Does that mean that my friends in here who are of an opposing take on the worst qualities of Hillary? Never made that attachment. At least in forum decorum. ( Many would agree they would not those qualities )

According to some in FYM I am a fascist, misogynist, xenophobe, marginalizer, by association and buzzword of the week. Oh well.

i don't (nor anyone else here, i think) have anything go by here when it comes to who you are as a person except the words you choose to type and submit onto this forum. I've never met you. you could truly be an artificial intelligence bot for all i know. the words you have chosen to type are the only ones i quoted and responded to, where you directly dismissed trump admitting to sexually assault as something you would hear on any average middle school playground.

this is not about anyone projecting trump's personality onto you. this was you saying eighth grade boys talk openly about sexually assaulting girls as a normal and acceptable occurrence. no big deal.

not normal. not acceptable. big deal. this is a problem if you don't get this.

 

[deep]

people in here are quick to pin labels on people

a lot of people have labeled me, for not being on the Hillary band wagon, keep in mind I voted for Bill Clinton in 96, Gore in 2000, Kerry in 2004, Obama in 2008 and 2012. I supported Hillary in 2008 and would have voted for her the general against McCain, who I supported against W in the GOP primaries in 2000.

But, looking at how she performed as Sec of State, and the co-mingling of that with Bill on her plane overseas, setting up meetings and taking money from actors that wanted contracts. And Huma working for both the State Dept and the Foundation, the whole thing wreaks of corruption as Caleb laid out in his long post.
I don't like labels and carefully evaluate each election carefully, and as I posted in my voting history. it is in line with most of the liberal posters in here. But this time around, to enable a team that is so corrupt is worse that putting in Trump who will have a thousand spotlights on him.

I am really happy for America that we have had a black president. Obama will go down fine in history. I would like the US to break the glass ceiling and have a woman president. Hillary 2016 with all her well earned and self-inflicted baggage will not be a good standard bearer. Questioning her fitness for office has nothing to do with her gender for me. If I am sexist why did I want her to be president in 2008 over the GOP candidate? In 2008 when I was supporting her, Obama supporters were suggesting race was my problem with Obama. But in 2008 and 2012, I preferred Obama over qualified white GOP males.

I don't think anyone in here has called me racist or sexist lately, if they do it is just ignorance on their part. I do find there are some lazy arguments of sexism at some of the criticisms of Hillary.

 

[bono_212]

So one thing Hillary has going for her is that she isn't Trump. Fantastic. Then what? Well, a lot of Democrats are hitting a wall there. My apathy is nothing personal; as I said before, the emails and "corruption" mean nothing to me at this point. Everyone involved in this election has done or said something I find morally reprehensible, so at least impress me with some exciting policies and...nope. That's not happening either. Never has. I scanned through her policies back in January and nothing in her speeches nor those awful debates changed my mind. She's more in line with my thinking than Trump of course, but not enough to make me an active supporter. I fucking hate her donors too. Talk about a basket of deplorables, holy shit.

I'm honestly not sure how you can look at her policies and come away with that opinion, IMO:

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

Hell, she even has an outlined plan for Autism and Alzheimer's research, two very personal topics to me. Nevermind her long-standing post-secondary education plans, well-developed tax plan, immigration + gun control reform policies, dedication to preserving SSM, AND OF COURSE the fact that she's very likely going to get this country on the right side of women's health benefits.

 

[DaveC]

i honestly can't remember the last time actual policy was discussed in this election cycle.

 

[deep]

View attachment 10954

 

[bono_212]

i honestly can't remember the last time actual policy was discussed in this election cycle.

Agreed ?

 

[deep]

I'm honestly not sure how you can look at her policies and come away with that opinion, IMO:

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

Hell, she even has an outlined plan for Autism and Alzheimer's research, two very personal topics to me. Nevermind her long-standing post-secondary education plans, well-developed tax plan, immigration + gun control reform policies, dedication to preserving SSM, AND OF COURSE the fact that she's very likely going to get this country on the right side of women's health benefits.

first, I want to say I have a lot of respect for you, I think that often, so I will write it now

but, if you look at the Clinton operation, it is a fraud, she has said you have a public opinion and a private opinion, she has a real slick team, they are polling to see what stuff to put on her website, if you look at the absolute lies she has told about her server and emails, when she was asked about her server being wiped, she responded, "you mean wiped with a cloth?" Either she is too stupid to be president or she is too dishonest. I believe it is the latter

 

[LemonMelon]

I'm honestly not sure how you can look at her policies and come away with that opinion, IMO:

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

Hell, she even has an outlined plan for Autism and Alzheimer's research, two very personal topics to me. Nevermind her long-standing post-secondary education plans, well-developed tax plan, immigration + gun control reform policies, dedication to preserving SSM, AND OF COURSE the fact that she's very likely going to get this country on the right side of women's health benefits.

Honestly? I don't believe Hillary is going to remain anywhere near as far left as he purported to be in the primaries, which is where many of her campaign quotes on various issues are taken from. That's my guess, based on her past. She made some radical changes to some of her policies in response to Bernie's progressive platform, particularly that strong tax reform but she's historically been an even-handed moderate on many issues, particularly with regards to foreign policy and the military, which is a major sticking point for me.

 

[bono_212]

Honestly? I don't believe Hillary is going to remain anywhere near as far left as he purported to be in the primaries, which is where many of her campaign quotes on various issues are taken from. That's my guess, based on her past. She made some radical changes to some of her policies in response to Bernie's progressive platform, particularly that strong tax reform but she's historically been an even-handed moderate on many issues, particularly with regards to foreign policy and the military, which is a major sticking point for me.

The public university policy has been their since day 1 of the last time she ran for president.

Her tax plan has changed, but not as significantly as you're suggesting, and so what if it was shaped by Bernie's, that should be a sign that she sees what young liberals want and is trying to make changes to reflect that.

The heath stuff should be non-partisan, but I don't have the slightest clue what Trump thinks about the issues of mental health, especially the two issues I highlighted. It's a huge, huge deal to me that she has such detailed plans for SO many topics, because a LOT of them should be easily passed. There are enough things that AREN'T hot button topics to make a huge impact quickly.

 

[LemonMelon]

One last thing, in reference to a post I made before: I know for a fact that there are Trump supporters that aren't ignorant and embarrassing. I've met them. When I lump his supporters together, I do so because Trump's "say whatever comes to mind, no matter how stupid or offensive and not back it up with evidence of any kind" ethos is attractive to the lowest common denominator. This ideology is suitable for a Seth MacFarlane character, but for the leader of a first world country, not so much. It's extremely rare for a Trump supporter to praise him for his ideas and not his ideals which is, I suppose, a function of the way this campaign has been run. I'm willing to show respect to a Trump supporter if they're willing to point to the strengths of their candidate of choice instead of decrying the flaws of the opposition.

When you boil it down, that's all this election has been: the deflection of blame through the magnification of flaws. There has been so little accountability that it's virtually impossible to find time for policy discussion anymore. All we get are accusations and defenses.

 

[bono_212]

Looking though Hillary's site a bit more, I'm reminded of something I lost track of along the way: Over turning Citizen's United and pushing towards publically funded elections. It's the only way things in this country will ever realistically improve/get out of the two party system.

Anyways, her plan isn't as thorough as I like, but I appreciate the deadlines she's given herself to act

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/09/08/restore-integrity-to-elections/

If all of that actually happened, I'd be ecstatic.

 

[deep]

Honestly? I don't believe Hillary is going to remain anywhere near as far left as he purported to be in the primaries, .

You are 100% correct, Just look at TTP, she called it the gold standard, then when she was losing to Bernie, flipped on it. and then we have this

As late as June 2015 Hillary Clinton and her campaign were still plotting how to defend her work on the Trans Pacific Partnership and free trade in general, according to newly leaked emails.
Mrs. Clinton, in a email to her top advisers, sent around a column by former Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers in The Washington Post arguing that rejecting the TPP would dent U.S. leadership.
“Damning w[sic] faint praise but good arguments,” Mrs. Clinton wrote to top foreign policy adviser Jake Sullivan and campaign chairman John Podesta.
Mr. Sullivan seemed enthusiastic, saying Mr. Summers “offers a sober basis for proceeding” with the TPP.
Mr. Podesta countered that Mr. Summers’ arguments didn’t get at average Americans’ concerns.
“This is smart, but essentially about American power. The issues around economic equity, environment, middle class worker protection seem like throw aways at the end. We need to rebuild the argument around those issues. I don’t think people will rally for IMF restructuring,” he wrote.

she is not honest, sad but true

 

[LemonMelon]

The public university policy has been their since day 1 of the last time she ran for president.

Her tax plan has changed, but not as significantly as you're suggesting, and so what if it was shaped by Bernie's, that should be a sign that she sees what young liberals want and is trying to make changes to reflect that.

The heath stuff should be non-partisan, but I don't have the slightest clue what Trump thinks about the issues of mental health, especially the two issues I highlighted. It's a huge, huge deal to me that she has such detailed plans for SO many topics, because a LOT of them should be easily passed. There are enough things that AREN'T hot button topics to make a huge impact quickly.

The "so what" for me is that she might not follow through with it. Her 2008 plan was less radical than Obama's, then she squares off with Bernie and has to adjust in order to not sound like a bureaucrat. What happens when she gets into office? I predict that things will carry on with few major changes to tax reform. Unquestionably, I prefer what she has on tap to Trump, but does it get me excited when I have other issues with her? Not really.

Have you read Hillary's policy on gun reform? I've read it twice now because of idiots online that honestly believe Crooked Hillary is going to take all their guns away by 2018, which is fucking absurd. She wants to close off internet/gun show loopholes for waiting periods and is looking to get military grade weapons away from civilians. No radical additions like psychological screenings, increased sales tax for ammunition, nothing. Those are fine first steps but, again, if Obama had another term we would have seen these issues addressed regardless.

 

[deep]

One last thing, in reference to a post I made before: I know for a fact that there are Trump supporters that aren't ignorant and embarrassing. I've met them. When I lump his supporters together, I do so because Trump's "say whatever comes to mind, no matter how stupid or offensive and not back it up with evidence of any kind" ethos is attractive to the lowest common denominator. This ideology is suitable for a Seth MacFarlane character, but for the leader of a first world country, not so much. It's extremely rare for a Trump supporter to praise him for his ideas and not his ideals which is, I suppose, a function of the way this campaign has been run. I'm willing to show respect to a Trump supporter if they're willing to point to the strengths of their candidate of choice instead of decrying the flaws of the opposition.

When you boil it down, that's all this election has been: the deflection of blame through the magnification of flaws. There has been so little accountability that it's virtually impossible to find time for policy discussion anymore. All we get are accusations and defenses.

I don't know any avid Trump supporters, I feel about this election how I felt about the Brexit election as much as I could understand it from a vantage point in CA. I did not post a lot in that thread, but did post something like, if I had a vote I would probably be about where the election ended. 52% for exit and 48% for staying.

In 2000 I was at least 95% confident in my vote for Gore, W proved a 5% consideration was undeserved. In 2004 I was 98-99% confident in my vote for Kerry, giving W 1-2% consideration was too much again. 2008 with the 8 year W debacle any Dem had 80% of my vote. When Nov came I was 90% sure for Obama, 4 years later, him or McCain 2008? ,Obama, I don't regret that vote. In 2012, Obama won a 60-65% confidence over 2012 Romney. I don't regret my 2012 vote and think Obama second term comes in at about 55-60% rating for me.

So now next Tuesday I have to evaluate and weigh my vote again. With Hillary Clinton 2016 I feel I have more information about her, how she operates and what I can expect from her than almost any other candidate that was not up for re-election. She rates very, very low. That sets a low bar for Trump.

It's late, tomorrow I may try and come up with what could be reasons to vote for Trump

 

[bono_212]

But to follow that up she does have reform policies for mental health care in general.

And the gun show loophole MUST be closed. Anyone who pretends Chicago's gun laws are failing are ignoring Indiana's incredibly lax ones, and that definitely includes gun shows (yes, I know I've said this 5 million times)


Edit: in response to lemels post. Not sure why the quote didn't join me.

 

[BVS]

People are numb to these out of touch, privileged, liberal celebrity buffoons telling them how to vote.
Trump wins NC by 6-8 points. New poll today has him +7.

Says the one voting for a reality tv star born with a silver spoon in his mouth, who's sued or filed bankruptcy to avoid reality. Man, every day you prove to be more and more of a comic genius.


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[BVS]

Like I said some members of the forum are Grievance Merchants playing Social Justice Bingo.

I'm not attacking you so don't play the victim. We can a sociological conversation without you assuming I'm an ass grabbing scoundrel.

You know this comes from a place of respect; but please stop equating this with "social justice" and 8th grade locker room talk. Even Bob had the conscience to speak against it, even if it was for only 10 seconds.

I'll just leave it at that, I've edited the rest...


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[Axver]

Oh geez, this thread is a dumpster fire and I really don't feel like trying to engage with the last sixty or so posts.

But are there really still people who think Trump's sexual assault remarks "only" described (disgusting, condemnable) hypothetical situations? He doesn't talk in hypotheticals; he describes actual things he has done. Fucking. Hell. People.

Also, I have literally never spoken with any man who talks like this, in or out of locker rooms, scummy pubs, behind classrooms, etc. I was once a horny teenage boy, but holy shit everything we ever fantasised about had the basic assumption of consent.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Trump wants to make America great again
Hillary wants to make America Mexico

Ohhhhhhh! Good one!

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Trump supporters are the new counter-culture on campus. Dunham and Ferrell will get trolled hard.

White power isn't counter culture.

 

[BEAL]

Two police officers killed in my home town last night, and 90% of the comments blame Obama and Clinton

Another 5% respond to those people, and the last 5% hope that the killer isn't just brought to justice, but all rules off the table, brutally murder him/her

I think the best course of action for this country is to ban the internet for a while. Time to go back to written word.

Seriously though, when did our feelings matter more than anything else in society?


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[Headache in a Suitcase]

If this does indeed become a tight race in the final week, two things will matter most.

Early voting.
Ground game.

One candidate has an advantage in both categories.

 

[Hewson]

Early voting.

.

Which will lead to Orange Donnie getting some traction with a section of the populace with his "rigged" claim, as early voting was open for a while before Comey's announcement about investigating Hillary's Weiner.

This will likely be the last we see of early voting in a presidential election.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

The study authors sum it up:

Between 1978 to 1998, the mortality rate for U.S. whites aged 45 to 54 fell by 2 percent per year on average, which matched the average rate of decline in the six countries shown, and the average over all other industrialized countries. After 1998, other rich countries’ mortality rates continued to decline by 2 percent a year. In contrast, U.S. white non-Hispanic mortality rose by half a percent a year. No other rich country saw a similar turnaround.

That means “half a million people are dead who should not be dead,” Angus Deaton, the 2015 Nobel laureate in economics and co-author of the paper, told The Washington Post. “About 40 times the Ebola stats. You’re getting up there with HIV-AIDS.”

The reasons for the increased death rate are not the usual things that kill Americans, like diabetes and heart disease. Rather, it’s suicide, alcohol and drug poisonings, and alcohol-related liver disease.

The least-educated are worst off: All-cause mortality among middle-aged Americans with a high-school degree or less increased by 134 deaths per 100,000 people between 1999 and 2013, but there was little change in mortality for people with some college. The death rate for the college-educated fell slightly.

This is a report from 2015, but I saw it brought up again on Morning Joe recently.

A country doesn't turn to authoritarianism because of a charismatic leader (or orange con man buffoon). It turns out of desperation. And there are a lot of desperate people in middle America.

15 years of life expectancy dropping.

And it's largely ignored.

Except by the far wing of the Republican party, that is.

This is where the increase in xenophobia and racism comes from. Where the Trump support comes from. And it's not going away when this orange faced dickhead loses next week.

The Democrats need to recognize this and do something about it, while not losing the course on social progress at the same time. They can't allow this demographic to continue to slip towards the far right, because as we see this year, the results can be downright terrifying.

It's the number one thing that Clinton will need to do in her first year to help bring this country back together. What could happen if we continue to ignore it and allow the far right to take hold is absolutely frightening.

 

[Axver]

This will likely be the last we see of early voting in a presidential election.

If trends in other democracies mean anything, actually you'll see it keep going up and up. People hate the inconvenience of having to vote on election day. In today's "agile economy", to borrow a favoured term of Australia's Dear Leader, people want to vote when they want, not when you say. The early voting stats are truly extraordinary now in some countries, approaching a quarter and even a third of the entire turnout.

 

[gump]

I'm honestly not sure how you can look at her policies and come away with that opinion, IMO:

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

Hell, she even has an outlined plan for Autism and Alzheimer's research, two very personal topics to me. Nevermind her long-standing post-secondary education plans, well-developed tax plan, immigration + gun control reform policies, dedication to preserving SSM, AND OF COURSE the fact that she's very likely going to get this country on the right side of women's health benefits.

Thank you. Seriously, this annoys the crap out of me. The false equivalency of "we have two equally bad candidates" is just an excuse not to vote. Nevermind that one of them is a proto-fascist: did undecideds who lean liberal ever moved past "OMG EMAILS!1!" and looked at actual policies? And then compared to whatever general ideas (I would never call them actual policies) Trump has advocated. But you know, she's a woman, so why would anyone pay attention to what she is actually saying or proposing?