The Bible - just an interesting read or the divine inspired flawless Word of God?

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bonosloveslave

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Any personal thoughts on this? Historical research you'd like to share (melon I'm betting?)?

Yes, the Bible was written by men, but I believe God has power/control to have it written as He intended it to be. If you say it can't be flawless because it has contradictions, I'd love to hear examples.
 
I'm going to start with the most obvious contradiction.

How do you explain away the contradiction between the story of "Creation" in the Bible and evidence of evolution?
 
I would say there is NO CONTRADICTION. Only a greater revelation of the creation......

My answer would be......

What is a day to GOD? At the time man understood what a DAY was. Do you think God is restricted by TIME? Is a second to God an eternity of time? What can God accomplish in a second?
 
Here is a contradiction.......

Either Jesus lied, the translation is wrong.....or people get to decide what is Literal or Allegory depending on what they wish to point out.

"An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt 12:40)

Now count with me.....

Good Friday One Night
Saturday Two Nights
Sunday Rose from the dead.

This is not THREE NIGHTS.....
 
Dreadsox said:
I would say there is NO CONTRADICTION. Only a greater revelation of the creation......

My answer would be......

What is a day to GOD? At the time man understood what a DAY was. Do you think God is restricted by TIME? Is a second to God an eternity of time? What can God accomplish in a second?

How does this one work, then? God creates day and night on the first day, but then somehow waits until day number four to create the sun and all the other stars.
 
Dreadsox said:
What is a day to GOD? At the time man understood what a DAY was. Do you think God is restricted by TIME? Is a second to God an eternity of time? What can God accomplish in a second?

So the Bible isn't the *literal* word of God, but rather more symbolic?

How do you tell the difference? A day doesn't have to mean a day...what else is symbolic, representative, not definite?
 
Dreadsox said:
I would say there is NO CONTRADICTION. Only a greater revelation of the creation......

My answer would be......

What is a day to GOD? At the time man understood what a DAY was. Do you think God is restricted by TIME? Is a second to God an eternity of time? What can God accomplish in a second?

I agree. I don't think anyone can take Genesis(along with many other portions of the OT) as literal. It can't be, historically they all happened before men could even record history. I think there are a lot of metaphorical stories that make up the OT, it doesn't make them any less important, but I don't think you can take them literally.
 
FizzingWhizzbees said:
So the Bible isn't the *literal* word of God, but rather more symbolic?

This can be a source of confusion. There are times where God uses imagery and parables to communicate with us.

God exists outside of time. So the concept of a day for God is meaningless, but it is something we can understand.

The Bible is the inherent Word of God. The writers of the books of the Bible were directly inspired by God, thus their physical presence at events (like creation) is not required.
 
Dreadsox said:
Here is a contradiction.......

Either Jesus lied, the translation is wrong.....or people get to decide what is Literal or Allegory depending on what they wish to point out.

"An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt 12:40)

Now count with me.....

Good Friday One Night
Saturday Two Nights
Sunday Rose from the dead.

This is not THREE NIGHTS.....

Dread, let me get back to you on this one. We've got some good material on this point.
 
ThatGuy said:


How does this one work, then? God creates day and night on the first day, but then somehow waits until day number four to create the sun and all the other stars.

I am not sure you understand what I am saying....


If God revealed himself in all of his capacity, do you think man would understand it?

I would say that through the centuries man has learned more about the creation and the science of it.

The Bible was written in words with concepts that could be understood then.
 
nbcrusader said:


Dread, let me get back to you on this one. We've got some good material on this point.

Cool, I had some real fun in college messing with people on this one....hehe Loved watching people studying for the ministry start to twitch...:wink:
 
Dreadsox said:


I am not sure you understand what I am saying....


If God revealed himself in all of his capacity, do you think man would understand it?

I would say that through the centuries man has learned more about the creation and the science of it.

The Bible was written in words with concepts that could be understood then.

Than how can we take these words that were written for people of the time to understand and try and apply them to the present day? I understand that 3000 years ago people didn't necessarily understand that the light provided for day comes from our star, the Sun. If we are to take the words used then, like "day" and "night" and try to interpret what they might mean in the present day, we could go on forever.

I agree with you that if God revealed himself in all of his capacity that man would not be able to understand it. Why, then, did God choose to describe His creation of the world with such detail? That opens it up to criticisms over scientific validity (ie example about light). Why not just skip over the part that people couldn't understand, rather than talling a story that doesn't add up?
 
nbcrusader said:


This can be a source of confusion. There are times where God uses imagery and parables to communicate with us.

God exists outside of time. So the concept of a day for God is meaningless, but it is something we can understand.

The Bible is the inherent Word of God. The writers of the books of the Bible were directly inspired by God, thus their physical presence at events (like creation) is not required.

Firstly, how do you differentiate between passages intended as parables or symbolism and passages intended to be taken literally?

Secondly, what are your beliefs about "creation" -- God created the world in seven literal days, God created the world in seven days which differ from our concept of a day? "Creation" is symbolic or literal?
 
I suppose I believe that the Bible to be flawless in the sense that it carries God's authority. That is was written by men and tranlated sure the literal meaning might have some error but not the message . Then I suppose the holy spirit inspired men to write, but it was the mens words and personality inerrancy of the text. If the Bible says X happened and then we find out X really never really happened , how can we see truth in anything else

So if you think of the bible as being written by God and believe.If the Bible says X happened and then we find out X really never really happened , how can we see truth in anything else if the bible is Gods word and what he said was proven wrong.

the Bible itself says Gods word is flawless, so If you believe in the Bible as being inspired by God but written by Man who is not flawless it seems this to me makes much more sense.I see great stories in the bible that teach me lessons everyday and that humble me and I can't claim to be any sort of good christian at all . I take some of it literally and some of it as parable meant to be just that.

I guess it's why too it is a great to have the Message by Eugene Peterson, and look at the translation he has done ...
 
Dreadsox said:
Here is a contradiction.......

Either Jesus lied, the translation is wrong.....or people get to decide what is Literal or Allegory depending on what they wish to point out.

"An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt 12:40)

Now count with me.....

Good Friday One Night
Saturday Two Nights
Sunday Rose from the dead.

This is not THREE NIGHTS.....

This is kinda long so I won't post it all here, but there is an explanation here:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/abdiscr/abdiscr49.html
 
nbcrusader said:
It is literal that God created all things. By using "seven days", God shows that He is a God of order, plan and purpose.

So God literally created everything, but the seven days are symbolic?

I still can't understand how people differentiate passages which are to be interpreted literally and those which are symbolic though. Someone explain to me? :wink:
 
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees

So God literally created everything, but the seven days are symbolic?

I still can't understand how people differentiate passages which are to be interpreted literally and those which are symbolic though. Someone explain to me?


Do you believe God can do anything? I do - I believe He could have done it in 7 literal days, 7,000 years, or 7 milliseconds. No one was at creation, so no one truly knows about the actual time, but I don't think it ultimately matters.
 
Dreadsox said:
This is not LITERAL. It was symbolic.

And.........?

I didn't say the entire Bible was literal - though I do believe it all to be true and from God/The Holy Spirit, whether you are talking about parables, historic events, whatever.

For those who think men could have or have made errors as the Bible has been written/translated....this is just my take on it, but 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..." - I can envision the Holy Spirit whispering, dictating to the men who wrote the Bible, so that there is no error. Purely the picture in my own mind's eye, call me crazy :shrug:
 
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Surely this thread sets up a false dichotomy - I don't see why it is entirely one or the other.

You might as well ask 'John Kerry - our greatest prospective President, or child-eating monster?'
 
Maybe the Bible is more truly 'flawed but inspired'?

Given the number of translations it's been through, the number of hands to the wheel, the number of beliefs those people brought to their work, I cannot take seriously anyone who would try to push a kind of 'divine stenographer' idea. This flies in the face of free will, which the authors presumably had. If humans were given free will, it's true for all.

Also I happen to be biased against the notion of an interventionist God. He may reveal himself from time to time, but he doesn't hold our hands.

Also there is no 'the Bible'. There are many translations, and they are far from identical.
 
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bonosloveslave said:


And.........?

I didn't say the entire Bible was literal - though I do believe it all to be true and from God/The Holy Spirit, whether you are talking about parables, historic events, whatever.

For those who think men could have or have made errors as the Bible has been written/translated....this is just my take on it, but 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..." - I can envision the Holy Spirit whispering, dictating to the men who wrote the Bible, so that there is no error. Purely the picture of my own mind's eye, call me crazy :shrug:

How then do you explain the books and writings that others claimed were inspired divinely but were removed from the Bible begging with the Council of Nice? How can you deny the POLITICS involved in the early church and the fact that Emporer Constantine had influence in determining the course of the Church.

EX:

The Gospel of the Birth of Mary
Thomas' Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus
The Epsitle of Paul the Apostle to the LAODICEANS
The General Epsitle of Barnabas (Pauls Companion)

MAN decided who was divinely inspired.

Now I can still be inspired and love scripture, however, having read the books listed above it is interesting that Barnabas' book, a book that was written by a disciple of Paul, who knew the teachings of Paul better than probably anyone else, had his book cut. Why? He was not divinely inspired?
 
You can't take the Creation narrative literally. It was most likely written by Moses, who's purpose was NOT to take down scientific FACT, but to present the creation story, as he understood it, using common literary styles of his time so that normal people could understand.

I took a class last year that was devoted to showing us how stories that are wide open to criticism (like Creation, Flood, Jericho, etc) are true in the ways that they needed to be true (purpose, message/meaning), not necessarily 100% chronological discriptions of events (that would be so boring anyway!).

Another place where the numbers don't make sense: the Flood narrative. First, the Bible says 7 of each animal, then just two. We learned that the Flood narrative in the Bible is probably a reinterpretation of the one in the Gilgamesh story (I think that's it). My history Prof. gave a few simple reasons for this. First, the original (if it truly is the original) Flood story has no moral theme like the Bible's does (God saved Noah's family because they were good people). Also, the "boat" structure in the first story is sort of square, while in the Bible, the boat is more boat shaped with very specific dimensions. It makes more sense to add a moral theme and specifics like dimensions and a boat that actually looks like a boat to the original than it does to remove a moral theme and make the boat square.

I think he's right; I think the Flood narrative in the Bible is NOT the original and the original is either the one of Gilgamesh, or another from which both of these were derived.
 
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