The Bible is not infallible!

Basstrap · 05-23-2002, 06:30 PM

I am bewildered by the amount of people who will, in response to a question, answer "because the bible says so"!! Thats not a good enough answer for anything.

You have biases I don't care who you are and medieval monks had vry very strong biases.

Does anyone here honestly believe that what is in the bible has survived 100% untouched by biases, untouched by errors in translation, untouched by biased transcribing by monks.

God inspires human -> human writes, human makes human mistakes -> mass production of bible in middle ages leads to mass transcribing, more human mistakes -> translations for other languages to read -> many mistakes were possibly made here. each translation of the bible for is probably a little different. Many words in one language have different meanings in another.

Result:

HYPOTHETICAL situation

beginnning -> drunkenness is not evil and can be tolerated if not carried away

Biases -> oh...we believe drunks are horrible people lets just change a couple words.

The point is...we as christians cannot and should not take the bible to be the be all and end all. It can be a nice foundation but we need to look inside ourselves and, as paul said "work out your own christianity".
within reason of course

I get drunk sometimes...am I going to hell. I get more friendly and I get playful and childish. I have more fun and I'm more outgoing and relaxed. If I felt like the holyspirit was condemning me for this I would stop...if I was a violent or angry drunk who would grow up to beat his wife I would certainly stop.
But I honestly feel like it in no way hinders my christianity.

I will shut-up...
.
.
now

.
end.
.

------------------
I'm not living
I'm just killing time

[This message has been edited by Basstrap (edited 05-23-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Basstrap (edited 05-23-2002).]

melon · 05-23-2002, 07:55 PM

There are many mainstream Christian sects that do not believe in Biblical infallibility. It is just that those who do often scream the loudest. I am often reminded of the Pharisees back in Jesus' day who screamed the loudest, but fell the hardest upon Jesus' first coming to Earth...

Melon

------------------
"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy

80sU2isBest · 05-23-2002, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Basstrap:
The point is...we as christians cannot and should not take the bible to be the be all and end all. It can be a nice foundation but we need to look inside ourselves and, as paul said "work out your own christianity".
within reason of course

I get drunk sometimes...am I going to hell. I get more friendly and I get playful and childish. I have more fun and I'm more outgoing and relaxed. If I felt like the holyspirit was condemning me for this I would stop...if I was a violent or angry drunk who would grow up to beat his wife I would certainly stop.
But I honestly feel like it in no way hinders my christianity.

First, do you believe that God is all-powerful?
Do you believe that God wants his children - the children he loves- to have his Word?
If you believe that God is all powerful and is wants his children to love, why do you think God would not have the power to keep his written word the way he wants it? Do you think that the all-powerful God would let his word get corrupted? What kind of God would let that happen?

Also, you say that "we" Christians shouldn't look at teh Bible as the "be all and end all". Then what written word should we look to?

What is your defintion of Christian?

Also, as far as you getting drunk - what makes you think that God, being perfect and holy, would think that getting drunk is quite okay? Would that meet his "perfect" standards? I don't think so. Anything that is not totally sinless can meet his standards.

That's why we can't "earn" salvation. That's why Christ died for us - he was/is perfect, and only his sacrifice could pay the price taht our sins and imperfection demand.

U2Bama · 05-23-2002, 09:07 PM

I drink beer; in fact, I went on a tour of Anheuser-Busch's headquarters in St. Louis, Missouri yesterday.

But more importantly, I believe that Jesus is Lord, and He was born of the Virgin Mary, died on the cross for our sins, and was resurrected. I consider myself to be a Christian.

~U2Alabama

------------------
after years of waiting, nothing came.

80sU2isBest · 05-23-2002, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by U2Bama:
I drink beer; in fact, I went on a tour of Anheuser-Busch's headquarters in St. Louis, Missouri yesterday.

But more importantly, I believe that Jesus is Lord, and He was born of the Virgin Mary, died on the cross for our sins, and was resurrected. I consider myself to be a Christian.
~U2Alabama

Bama, I do believe it's quite alright for a Christian to drink beer. But getting drunk is a different issue.
Will it send someone to hell? No. But that doesn't make it right.

diamond · 05-23-2002, 09:56 PM

So getting drunk is ok, right guys?

And drunk Republicans will be saved who have a humble heart right?

ok.
Glad we got that cleared up.
thank you

DB9

------------------
AIM= diamondbruno9

U2Bama · 05-23-2002, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Bama, I do believe it's quite alright for a Christian to drink beer. But getting drunk is a different issue.
Will it send someone to hell? No. But that doesn't make it right.

I agree. Christianity gets a bad rap for condemning drunkeness, but if you look at nearly every society and culture through the ages, no one has ever been praised for being the town drunk. From a health standpoint, a moral standpoint, a social standpoint, and from most religious standpoints, it is not right, and Christianity is not alone in this view.

~U2Alabama

80sU2isBest · 05-23-2002, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by U2Bama:
I agree. Christianity gets a bad rap for condemning drunkeness, but if you look at nearly every society and culture through the ages, no one has ever been praised for being the town drunk. From a health standpoint, a moral standpoint, a social standpoint, and from most religious standpoints, it is not right, and Christianity is not alone in this view.
~U2Alabama

Exactly.
And I think the main point here is whether the Bible is the infallible word of God. I for one think that since God is all powerful, he would be able to keep his written word on earth intact and pure.

Zoomerang96 · 05-23-2002, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:

Quote:

Originally posted by U2Bama:
I agree. Christianity gets a bad rap for condemning drunkeness, but if you look at nearly every society and culture through the ages, no one has ever been praised for being the town drunk. From a health standpoint, a moral standpoint, a social standpoint, and from most religious standpoints, it is not right, and Christianity is not alone in this view.
~U2Alabama

Exactly.
And I think the main point here is whether the Bible is the infallible word of God. I for one think that since God is all powerful, he would be able to keep his written word on earth intact and pure.

ive agreed with this most of my life. well for as long as i can remember anyway. i do believe that things have changed through the years, though the word of God has not.

that does, however, have serious implications.

it is up to one to make the best possible judgement up on every issue, and make a 100% honest effort to do what they believe would be pleasing to God.

however, even that has implications. i dont believe hitler was a christian, but he certainly had no problem praising God in certain situations.

------------------
after years of waiting, nothing came.

U2Bama · 05-23-2002, 10:35 PM

Hello deathbear.

~U2Alabama

------------------
after years of waiting, nothing came.

STING2 · 05-24-2002, 01:34 AM

Hey do you remember what Jesus did to those Jugs of Water at the party?

Spiral_Staircase · 05-24-2002, 08:19 AM

He turned them into wine. Why do you ask?

80sU2isBest · 05-24-2002, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zoomerang96:
ive agreed with this most of my life. well for as long as i can remember anyway. i do believe that things have changed through the years, though the word of God has not.

that does, however, have serious implications.

it is up to one to make the best possible judgement up on every issue, and make a 100% honest effort to do what they believe would be pleasing to God.

Exactly, and it's pretty shameful that we often choose wrong when we know what God wants for us. Makes me feel lower than crap when I do that.

Well, I'm off for a 3 or 4 day holiday.

In my best Texan vernacular,

Bye Ya'll!

U2Bama · 05-24-2002, 08:38 AM

Have a splendid Memorial Day weekend, EightiesU2IsTheBest!

~U2Alabama

Basstrap · 05-24-2002, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Do you believe that God wants his children - the children he loves- to have his Word?
If you believe that God is all powerful and is wants his children to love, why do you think God would not have the power to keep his written word the way he wants it? Do you think that the all-powerful God would let his word get corrupted? What kind of God would let that happen?

I do believe that God is all-powerful indeed, I also live in a world corrupted by evil, where millions starve everyday while we over here have bbq's.
If God tried to make the bible EXACTLY the same for this many centuries why not also alter the normal course of everything on earth?

God lets things run its course. Humans aren't robots that God controls from above. He has never done that, and to believe he did that with thousands of people over dozens of centuries can't be true can it? That is why bad things happen to good people that is why errors were made in transcribing and translating. We are free creatures and we make mistakes.

I think that the bible has a very good foundtation. Who could dispute something like "love your neighbor"?
For ideologies the Bible is extremely useful, but for little trivial things like getting drunk, things easily influenced by biases, I believe God will speak to us and let it be known to us if he doesn't want us doing that.

Yes, Jesus turned water to wine.
Now do you honestly believe that everyone there stayed sober. I think not. And I don't believe it was koolaid either!

in proverbs 31 it suggests the ruler give beer to the poor so they could "forget their miseries". Even though these are not God's words why, if he has all power, would he let it get into the bible without any following chapter on how what was just said is wrong?
follow?

The point is...as christians issues like this are trivial.

Quote:

what makes you think that God, being perfect and holy, would think that getting drunk is quite okay?

are you saying that by getting drunk God sees me as less holy? Why? explain to me whenever you get back why being drunk inhibits a pursuit of perfection?

There are dangers, granted. Many dangers, and for many people it is best to steer clear because it will lead to depression, violence, actions you know you wouldn't and shouldn't do while sober etc.

I'm not addicted, I've been drinking maybe once in the past two months and I will tonight. But on occasion I think its a good way to unwind, relax, and get school-wrok out of your mind.

Anyway, I don't know why I'm argueing so much about this. A year ago I would be on your side, but things have changed for me, I've thought long about these issues with my friends and my opinions have slowly changed.
I'll probably grow out of it or something, who knows!!

Also, no hard feeling to 80's-dude. I just love theological discussions and such

I also like being the devils advocate as you can tell.

------------------
I'm not living
I'm just killing time

sulawesigirl4 · 05-24-2002, 10:05 AM

Perhaps the Bible isn�t so much infallible as are the interpretations of certain passages by people throughout history.

gvox · 05-24-2002, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by melon:
There are many mainstream Christian sects that do not believe in Biblical infallibility. It is just that those who do often scream the loudest. I am often reminded of the Pharisees back in Jesus' day who screamed the loudest, but fell the hardest upon Jesus' first coming to Earth...

Melon

Just how many thumbs up can I possibly give this comment??

gvox · 05-24-2002, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
Perhaps the Bible isn�t so much infallible as are the interpretations of certain passages by people throughout history.

...and this one??

Basstrap · 05-24-2002, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Just how many thumbs up can I possibly give this comment??

I'd go out on a limb and say 2, perhaps?

------------------
I'm not living
I'm just killing time

sulawesigirl4 · 05-24-2002, 10:27 AM

btw, i think I mixed up my negatives. What I meant to say is more or less...maybe the Bible is infallible and our interpretations are fallible. lol.

05-23-2002, 06:30 PM	#1
Basstrap ONE love, blood, life Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 10,726 Local Time: 05:38 PM	The Bible is not infallible! I am bewildered by the amount of people who will, in response to a question, answer "because the bible says so"!! Thats not a good enough answer for anything. You have biases I don't care who you are and medieval monks had vry very strong biases. Does anyone here honestly believe that what is in the bible has survived 100% untouched by biases, untouched by errors in translation, untouched by biased transcribing by monks. God inspires human -> human writes, human makes human mistakes -> mass production of bible in middle ages leads to mass transcribing, more human mistakes -> translations for other languages to read -> many mistakes were possibly made here. each translation of the bible for is probably a little different. Many words in one language have different meanings in another. Result: HYPOTHETICAL situation beginnning -> drunkenness is not evil and can be tolerated if not carried away Biases -> oh...we believe drunks are horrible people lets just change a couple words. The point is...we as christians cannot and should not take the bible to be the be all and end all. It can be a nice foundation but we need to look inside ourselves and, as paul said "work out your own christianity". within reason of course I get drunk sometimes...am I going to hell. I get more friendly and I get playful and childish. I have more fun and I'm more outgoing and relaxed. If I felt like the holyspirit was condemning me for this I would stop...if I was a violent or angry drunk who would grow up to beat his wife I would certainly stop. But I honestly feel like it in no way hinders my christianity. I will shut-up... . . now . end. . ------------------ I'm not living I'm just killing time [This message has been edited by Basstrap (edited 05-23-2002).] [This message has been edited by Basstrap (edited 05-23-2002).] __________________

05-23-2002, 07:55 PM	#2
melon ONE love, blood, life Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ásgarðr Posts: 11,789 Local Time: 04:08 PM	There are many mainstream Christian sects that do not believe in Biblical infallibility. It is just that those who do often scream the loudest. I am often reminded of the Pharisees back in Jesus' day who screamed the loudest, but fell the hardest upon Jesus' first coming to Earth... Melon ------------------ "Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy __________________

05-24-2002, 10:27 AM	#20
sulawesigirl4 Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,415 Local Time: 03:08 PM	btw, i think I mixed up my negatives. What I meant to say is more or less...maybe the Bible is infallible and our interpretations are fallible. lol. __________________

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05-23-2002, 09:07 PM	#4
U2Bama Rock n' Roll Doggie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Gulf Coast State of Mine Posts: 3,405 Local Time: 03:08 PM	I drink beer; in fact, I went on a tour of Anheuser-Busch's headquarters in St. Louis, Missouri yesterday. But more importantly, I believe that Jesus is Lord, and He was born of the Virgin Mary, died on the cross for our sins, and was resurrected. I consider myself to be a Christian. ~U2Alabama ------------------ after years of waiting, nothing came.

05-23-2002, 09:56 PM	#6
diamond ONE love, blood, life Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tempe, Az USA Posts: 12,856 Local Time: 01:08 PM	So getting drunk is ok, right guys? And drunk Republicans will be saved who have a humble heart right? ok. Glad we got that cleared up. thank you DB9 ------------------ AIM= diamondbruno9

05-23-2002, 10:35 PM	#10
U2Bama Rock n' Roll Doggie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Gulf Coast State of Mine Posts: 3,405 Local Time: 03:08 PM	Hello deathbear. ~U2Alabama ------------------ after years of waiting, nothing came.

05-24-2002, 01:34 AM	#11
STING2 Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 8,876 Local Time: 08:08 PM	Hey do you remember what Jesus did to those Jugs of Water at the party?

05-24-2002, 08:19 AM	#12
Spiral_Staircase War Child Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Knoxville, TN, USA Posts: 684 Local Time: 02:08 PM	He turned them into wine. Why do you ask?

05-24-2002, 08:38 AM	#14
U2Bama Rock n' Roll Doggie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Gulf Coast State of Mine Posts: 3,405 Local Time: 03:08 PM	Have a splendid Memorial Day weekend, EightiesU2IsTheBest! ~U2Alabama

05-24-2002, 10:05 AM	#16
sulawesigirl4 Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 7,415 Local Time: 03:08 PM	Perhaps the Bible isn�t so much infallible as are the interpretations of certain passages by people throughout history.