The Athiest thread

[UnforgettableLemon]

I got the mitachlorians, but to be a keeper of the peace or a sith lord

teh s1+}{ /_0R|)z }{4\/3 teh c00/_3s+ saberz, j00 n00b!!11!!one

 

[BelisSecretID]

belis pissed off!!!1111!!!! and is refraining from posting.

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

Is there something shorter we can call you? Your username is too long lol. NAET will have to do though if you dont want to give us your real name hehe.
I cant blame for you for the actions of others though, nor lump you with them. Sorry if it sounded like I was.

Mmm chips on the beach..where's beli? or will she have replied already by the time i've written this? lol

My name's Leigh. I'd be happy if you called me that or NAET. Either /or just call me "hey you". I'll answer to all of the above.

 

[Angela Harlem]

belis pissed off!!!1111!!!! and is refraining from posting.

lmao
tell beli to piss off in the other direction then! we have seagulls to feed

 

[intedomine]

A lot happens here in 2 days I tell ya. 5 long pages of discussion!

I thought it was simplistic of NotAnEasyThing to come out and say some of the Athiests on here only follow athiesm as a result of irritation with chrsitianity so as a result of our anti christian stance being so strong, we dont even like to consider the fact that there may be a God.

Mate, we wouldnt be posting here if that was the case.

Indeed, history and bible extracts have allowed us to flirt with the idea that God is more than a creator, yet is this really enough for people to succumb to the idea that God really is something more.

But I can accept people to believe in a God, and I feel some theories are plausible including those that deal with the classic idea that "everything must have a beginning."

In

And like I've said I actually do believe in God if God merely is the thing we know bugger all about that "turned the ignition key" of the Universe.

In fact I love it when people offer cases FOR the existence of God who like to separate religion from the idea of GOD. (Because surely God existed before religion?)

But call me stubborn, the reality is i need evidence not theories.

"I'll believe it when I see it for myself"


And someone wrote before about the hypocrisy of athiests when it comes to listening to the "christian" band U2.

It's not what Bono says, it's how he says it when it comes to liking U2.

You like music because of the sound, it's only after you gain appreciation(or in some cases non appreciation) that you start looking for lyrical meaning.

And Bono's lyrics, are not fundamentally christian. Fundamental christians would not write a song like Wake Up Dead Man, because many prefer to acknowledge the "dead man" as still alive.

 

[Angela Harlem]

ps my name is really anna.

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

A lot happens here in 2 days I tell ya. 5 long pages of discussion!

I thought it was simplistic of NotAnEasyThing to come out and say some of the Athiests on here only follow athiesm as a result of irritation with chrsitianity so as a result of our anti christian stance being so strong, we dont even like to consider the fact that there may be a God.

Mate, we wouldnt be posting here if that was the case.

Actually intedomine what I said was that I appreciate that there is definately a path of intellectual searching for atheists, but that many of those I have come across tend to indicate the way that they have been pissed off by christians and how that has also had an impact on their position. I wasn't even specifically refering to people on this thread. Although since I first posted that comment there have been a couple of comments along these lines from atheists.

Cheers,
Leigh

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

ps my name is really anna.

Hi anna, pleased to meet you.

 

[Angela Harlem]

And likewise my dear!

On topic though for a moment, yu can probably count me as one of those people who steer clear of religion partly because of those who follow it. And I mean the bad eggs. Those who bring their belief a bad name. Perpetuate it's reputation through a cycle of ongoing blah blah blah. I've mentioned this enough already lol, my reasons for not liking what I see. But I dont see it as any great loss as slapping a label on myself or going to church regularly is not going ot take me closer to god. I dont even know what there is to believe, most of what I reckon is based on an assumption that there has to be something out there. Something made us all, made everything around us, and no building on this earth no matter how pretty it's windows will contain any answers which can cause me to feel 100% that I'm on the right path. So instead I'll hang back and let it take a backseat.

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

No worries anna! I respect your candor and your willingness to discuss your views in a thread like this.

 

[intedomine]

Ok thats all cool and cleared up thanks Leigh.

 

[AcrobatMan]

i believe in love

but love is god..

so i am a believer..congratulate me....


Acrobat

 

[swissair135]

"And Bono's lyrics, are not fundamentally christian. Fundamental christians would not write a song like Wake Up Dead Man, because many prefer to acknowledge the "dead man" as still alive."

-Really? Do you really know what Wake up Dead Man is about?

Im not a religious fanatic, U2 is the only thing that has a christian message, that I listen to. But the basis of U2 songs (the majority at least) with any scrutiny and well researched analysis, will lead you to the bible.

What do you think Vertigo is about? "You give me something I can feel"

Elevation? "I believe in you... I need you to elevate me"

Beautiful Day? "after the floods all the colors came out. Teach me lord/I know im not a hopeless case/What you dont know you can feel it somehow"

I dont believe in todays brand of christianity. I am Christian because I follow the teachings of Jesus and acknowledge his deity, but wont buy into the moral propaganda that is being fed in order to scare the sh*t out of people, especially in the USA.

Bono says it best "I believe in the kingdom come, where the colors will bleed into one... I still havent found what im looking for" ....

Today's brand of human christian teachings(especially after these bias red-neck preachers get up at the podium) leads me sometimes further away from god, and farther away from the 6 billion other humans on this planet.

Thank god for U2, to make sense of it all. These guys exemplify the true meaning of christianity in all their songs.

 

[beli]

NotAnEasyThing

In my youth I did a great deal of investigating into Second Social Neo-Darwinism (or whatever it was up to at the time), Lamarck, Morgan, Morris, you name it, I read it. Thats for evolution.

Then theres the whole big bang theory, dinosaurs disappearance, again, you name it, I read it.

There is no "Unified Atheism Theory" so each issue of belief is an individual one. That was my avenue of investigation, and my interest. But that was a while a go, and my readings are well out of date, as is the nature of science. A Wanderer is doing an excellent job of describing recent theories. I was not particularly interested in the bible. Thats my call. That does not make your views any more valid than mine nor anyone elses in this thread.

As for the theism issue -. Atheists deny the existence of all gods. Some Christians deny the existence of all gods, except for one. How does that work? How can a person believe that all gods dont exist except for their own?

My husbands uncle is a father /brother and believes in all gods/spirits. Christianity, Shamanism, you name it, it has substance according to Anthony. And I respect him immensely for it. A beautiful person he is.

Please explain how you can believe in one god and dismiss the rest? Please do not use the bible as a reference point. I am not talking about religion, Im talking about Theism. The bible is not evidence any more than the Iliad is evidence of Troy. Heinrich Schliemann, an idol of mine, discovered the remains of Troy - the walls, the jewelery, etc. This is evidence. The Iliad is not. There is geological evidence of a "great flood" of sorts. This is evidence. The bible story of Noah is not.

Please refrain from "I know and have known several atheist or people claiming to be atheist, more often than not after we've talked about these issues in greater depth they would probably better decribed as agnostic'.

Also, I never said all Christians annoy me. You said that. I said some of the fundamentalist ones on this website annoy me. You also said that I was "browned off" about Christianity because I attended an Anglican school. Again, I did not say that. You said that. etc. Please refrain.

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

swissair, this is not meant to be a debate about U2 lyrics. I don't think any of those who have been posting regularly would disagree about the underlying christian content in their songs. And "Wake up dead man" is about the feelings of a 'Job'-like character who is feeling like God is silent. It's a lot like many of the psalms.

But while I can agree with you that U2 help to 'make sense of it all', I don't think that means it is unreasonable for those who have an atheist view of life getting something different and yet equally as meaningful out of the music.

But this thread is really an opportunity to explore the issue of atheism and this is in no way out of place on a U2 fan site.

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

NotAnEasyThing

Also, I never said all Christians annoy me. You said that. I said some of the fundamentalist ones on this website annoy me. You also said that I was "browned off" about Christianity because I attended an Anglican school. Again, I did not say that. You said that. etc. Please refrain.

Beli, nice to see you back on here!

I didn't say "ALL" christians either- just that there are those that do- you said especially on this website. Also I didn't say you were browned off about Christianity because you attended an Anglican school. I said it "SEEMED by your description of the anglican school experience to be browned off". I also asked for you to tell me so I needn't make any assumptions.

Please refrain from "I know and have known several atheist or people claiming to be atheist, more often than not after we've talked about these issues in greater depth they would probably better decribed as agnostic'.

Do you mean I can't describe my experiences?

Please explain how you can believe in one god and dismiss the rest? Please do not use the bible as a reference point. I am not talking about religion, Im talking about Theism. The bible is not evidence any more than the Iliad is evidence of Troy. Heinrich Schliemann, an idol of mine, discovered the remains of Troy - the walls, the jewelery, etc. This is evidence. The Iliad is not. There is geological evidence of a "great flood" of sorts. This is evidence. The bible story of Noah is not.

I think this is the main point of contention Beli. I respectfully disagree with you on the assertion that the bible is not evidence. Archeological and geological evidence is not our only source of knowledge about history. If you say that, you need to rip out most of the pages of our collective history. Importantly there is loads of archeological evidence to support the history found in the bible. When it comes to the bible I think sometimes without actually looking at it too carefully it's easy to assume it is just subjective truth. But what I have been trying to show is there is some tangible ways of testing the more contentious claims it makes- in particular, about Jesus.

As to how I can believe in one god and dismiss the rest; The idea of many gods has some inherent problems. For one thing the various spiritual expressions have conflicting claims that by virtue of simple logic can't all be true. Also there is an overall balance that I observe when I look at the universe that would make a kind of greek pantheistic apporach difficult to accept as well. But when it comes down to it, my perspective has been to examine each of the claims about God/gods that I have encountered and weigh them on their own merits, and my own experience and see what stacks up.

I was not particularly interested in the bible. Thats my call. That does not make your views any more valid than mine nor anyone elses in this thread.

As I have stated, I am not trying to act surperior. But the fact that I feel content with the conclusions I've come to is ok isn't it. I certainly think you have the right to feel that way too. I was only suggesting that maybe you may have missed some important information along the way. If you think I am missing something I would be grateful if you would point it out too. But if you are not interested in the bible- that's fine. It's not my only source for information about the world.

As for the theism issue -. Atheists deny the existence of all gods. Some Christians deny the existence of all gods, except for one. How does that work? How can a person believe that all gods dont exist except for their own?

It comes down to what God has revealed about himself both in general (ie. in creation) and in the Bible. It's a little difficult to explain this if I'm not allowed to refer to the bible. But suffice to say that I have confidence that it does indeed have a basis in fact, and so I can't just pick and choose what I would like to believe- I have to accept what God has in fact revealed about himself - all the time looking to see that it is consistent with all the things I know about the universe.

Cheers,
Leigh

 

[Angela Harlem]

You dont believe the bible has ever been purposefully editted or rewritten?

 

[beli]

I didn't say "ALL" christians either- just that there are those that do- you said especially on this website.

I didnt say "especially on this website"
I said:

The Christians on this web site annoy me. Especially the fundamentalist USA ones.

ie those are the only ones (bar my mother in law) who annoy me.

Also I didn't say you were browned off about Christianity because you attended an Anglican school. I said it "SEEMED by your description of the anglican school experience to be browned off".

How? This is what I said. How does it seem I was browned off?

As for reading it. I attended an Anglican school for three years - 3 years of divinity, chapel, etc. Havent read much since. I also havent read Anna Karenina. Cant get into either of them.

Do you mean I can't describe my experiences?

You can describe your experiences but it reads like pseudo proletyzing(not really the right word), as in - once you spoke to them they decided they were agnostics.

But the fact that I feel content with the conclusions I've come to is ok isn't it.

I never said that. I dont care if you are content with your own conclusions. Thats your business, not mine.

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

You dont believe the bible has ever been purposefully editted or rewritten?

Sure it has been edited. I believe it to be written by human authors but guided by God. Not rewritten, if by that you mean the original meaning altered. See my previous posts on it.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Sorry I missed the other replies. Were your replies on the question of it ever being purposefully changed so it's direction was somewhat diffterent?
I'll go looking for them


my typing is horredndous on this keyboard

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

I didnt say "especially on this website"
I said:



ie those are the only ones (bar my mother in law) who annoy me.

"The Christians on this web site annoy me" -doesn't that mean especially on this website are christians who annoy you?

How? This is what I said. How does it seem I was browned off?

I'm sorry if I misconstrued what you were saying. But to me the tone on how you have written implies a certain degree of disdain for Christians. If this is not the case then I apologise if I've misunderstood. By the way I'm fine with it if you don't like christians- some are pretty hard to like.

You can describe your experiences but it reads like pseudo proletyzing(not really the right word), as in - once you spoke to them they decided they were agnostics.

No actually what I mean't was that what they called atheism often turned out to be more of an agnostic view.

I never said that. I dont care if you are content with your own conclusions. Thats your business, not mine.

Well it matters to me how you feel about your conclusions on this topic. Isn't that the whole point of a discussion (or this thread for that matter). If it's just our own business what we believe then, why bother discussing anything at all?

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

Sorry I missed the other replies. Were your replies on the question of it ever being purposefully changed so it's direction was somewhat diffterent?

Yup that's right anna. I was tlaking about that as one of the major arguements people raise as to the authenticity of the bible. Hope you can find it- this thread is getting awful big

 

[Angela Harlem]

argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i'll write at home lol


\ive got the shits with this kb

 

[beli]

"The Christians on this web site annoy me" -doesn't that mean especially on this website are christians who annoy you?

No, it means some of the Christians on this website annoy me. Theres nothing "especially" about it. The Christians I know in real life, and on other websites, dont annoy me.

Well it matters to me how you feel about your conclusions on this topic. Isn't that the whole point of a discussion (or this thread for that matter). If it's just our own business what we believe then, why bother discussing anything at all?

The point of a discussion is to determine how others feel about their conclusions? No. Point is to exchange information.

I doesnt matter to me about anybodys conclusions on religion, which this thread has turned into a discussion about. I really dont care what people do inside their own home/head. Live and Let Live.

As for this thread. Initially this thread was started by me being annoyed by various Christians on this website turning most threads in fym into a discussion on Christianity.

I have continued on as I was enjoying A Wanderers posts. I am no longer up to speed on those issues so I was enjoying listening.

I also asked you a couple of questions as it was opportune.

Im also enjoying the people talking about song lyrics, too.

 

[swissair135]

Im not saying it is out of place, but there is no shame to demonstrate the irony of it all.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I'm thick, really thick. Can I just clarify, you think it's ironic to like a band who's music has it's share of Christian influence when one claims to be athiest themselves?
My grandmother is a devout Catholic. Not hardcore in that she talks about it, shes just very dedicated to her faith. She attends and lives an admirable life. I love her very much and am very close to her and am aware very much of how she is. It's not ironic though.
Some of my favourite books have been influenced heavily by religion and faith. That's not ironic. There's other people's faith and beliefs everywhere around us. Doesn't mean we can't be honest with our own views. Doesn't make it ironic.

 

[indra]

I'm thick, really thick. Can I just clarify, you think it's ironic to like a band who's music has it's share of Christian influence when one claims to be athiest themselves?
My grandmother is a devout Catholic. Not hardcore in that she talks about it, shes just very dedicated to her faith. She attends and lives an admirable life. I love her very much and am very close to her and am aware very much of how she is. It's not ironic though.
Some of my favourite books have been influenced heavily by religion and faith. That's not ironic. There's other people's faith and beliefs everywhere around us. Doesn't mean we can't be honest with our own views. Doesn't make it ironic.

I don't even think it's odd, but maybe that's just me.

However...if there are any U2 fans here who have suddenly realized "Ack!!! I can't listen to and enjoy U2 -- I'm a godforsaken atheist (or agnostic, or neo pagen, or unitarian universalist, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or whatever...)" take a listen to The Church (they can use the fans). Us Church fans are a varied lot...we even have the token Christian or two.

 

[beli]

What, The Church has toke fans?

 

[indra]

What, The Church has toke fans?

Shocking!!!



(Actually, I think it's a requirement.... )

 

[NotAnEasyThing]

No, it means some of the Christians on this website annoy me. Theres nothing "especially" about it. The Christians I know in real life, and on other websites, dont annoy me.

I think this is just semantics now. By especially I was meaning "particularly", as in the christians on this website and not christians elsewhere. But bugger that, it's not even really important.

The point of a discussion is to determine how others feel about their conclusions? No. Point is to exchange information.

I doesnt matter to me about anybodys conclusions on religion, which this thread has turned into a discussion about. I really dont care what people do inside their own home/head. Live and Let Live.

As for this thread. Initially this thread was started by me being annoyed by various Christians on this website turning most threads in fym into a discussion on Christianity.

I have continued on as I was enjoying A Wanderers posts. I am no longer up to speed on those issues so I was enjoying listening.

I also asked you a couple of questions as it was opportune.

Im also enjoying the people talking about song lyrics, too.

Exchange information and not respect or value the other person's motivation/perspective/journey? Seems very clinical to me.