The American poor

[Palace_Hero]

Taking issue with someone else's comments is one thing, but to personally attack them over and over is something I would have thought you understood by now.

I've not personally attacked her (in this thread, I know one instance you speak of however). I'm just expressing my view. Infact I think I've been quite non-derogatory .

 

[deep]

lets move on....

back on topic that is.


there have been some excellent observations in here

being one of the senior posters here

i have seen a dramatic change in my lifetime.

GM was our largest employer for the longest time

UAW workers were paid a living wage and could afford to buy a home, had benefits and a modest pension.


Now our biggest employer is Walmart, they pay poverty wages, offer little, if any benefits at all.

 

[U2democrat]

Thanks deep...this topic is very important and I want it to stay on track.

 

[Palace_Hero]

I won't veer it off course myself again.

 

[U2democrat]

Thanks

 

[Dreadsox]

lets move on....

back on topic that is.


there have been some excellent observations in here

being one of the senior posters here

i have seen a dramatic change in my lifetime.

GM was our largest employer for the longest time

UAW workers were paid a living wage and could afford to buy a home, had benefits and a modest pension.


Now our biggest employer is Walmart, they pay poverty wages, offer little, if any benefits at all.

I would agree with you here....in the Northeast....CT where my family comes from...

WE used to make subs. We used to make boats....

Now the largest employer is the casinos.

In MA, the farming industry for Cranberries is not what it was, and our taxes are rising because we are trying to help the farmers.

There is no industry local that is on the rise....

 

[U2Bama]

The poor may have the opportunity to get jobs but at what expense? Car plants move in, commercial centers spring up, and the next thing you know you've got Wal Mart moving in and driving out local business so everyone in town is working for pay to keep themselves minimally above the poverty line. Don't me wrong, if these car plants are moving in and giving people real jobs where they make acceptable wages, are able to unionize, are guaranteed job security, and are given health care benefits then that's great for now. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't recall a time in history when the ruling class genuinly had the interests of everyone else in mind, save for when they had to cover their own asses. It would seem that pacification passes for "common ground" all too often.

And here is where you and I may either have to agree to disagree/meet halfway or unfortunately reach an impasse.

In the 3 rural Alabama communities where auto plants have moved in (Vance - Mercedes-Benz; Lincoln - Honda; Hope Hull (Montgomery) - Hyundai), the ensuing development and greatest benefit to the job eceonomy has not been Wal-Marts but the plants themselves and the related supplier plants. None of the towns listed above even has its own Wal-Mart plant and Mercedes has been in Vance for close to 10 years.

But here's where we may have a problem: you require as your conditions:

(1) the car plants giving people real jobs where they make acceptable wages (CHECK)
(2) are able to unionize (You may not accept this - they are able to vote on whether to unionize; so far, employees have not favored unionizing. I do not think they should be forced to.)
(3) guaranteed job security (not sure of the specifics of job security you are demanding; something like tenure for public educators?)
(4) given health care benefits (CHECK)

SOme of them don't want to unionize; many people like one I know very well, in this area, disagree with the political structure of today's organized labor and see the attempts to unionize Alabama's plants as an attempt more designed to build up the political clout of organized labor than to benefit the Alabama auto workforce. I have not been hearing the bad stories about these 3 plants or the Toyota engine plant in the Huntsville area. And the unions are involved in the steel and mining industries here, but those industries have been shutting down there operations in this region over the past 40-50 years. In an attempt to retain a presence, the Steel Workers Union organized a local Wal Mart store (not the Commercial & Food Workers Union!).

~U2Alabama

 

[Teta040]

S Tielemans, there's a saying: that whatever happens in American eventually happens in the rest of the world. Often, it's true. We will face the same demographic problem starting in 5 years, when the first of the Baby Boomers hit 65. It's here already actually--many 55's and over taking early retirements. President Bush's plan to eliminate Social Security and replace it with private accounts appeared to be dead in the water as of last month, even to members of his own party, and after Katrina, I think we can say Social Security is going to be with us a good long while.

I hope that saying is true, because if it is, your benefits won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

I've been reading this thread with great interest, and I find it curious that while initially Katrina has appeared to blow the lid off the explosive issues of race and poverty, I think as time goes on the whole poverty issue, period, may finally come to the fore. The Depression was, of course, probably the last time we really saw poeverty in all its graphic ugliness dominate the nation's media. Now, in addition to the horrific aftermath of the cleanup, we may actually have a historic oportunity to finally bring these issues into the open, considering that for the first time since the '30s, we have a refugee crisis in this country. And we have not even begun to estimate the other economic effects we are all going to have to experience. The hurricane has done some horrific things, but on the bright side, disasters such as this often force social and political change. Along the way, the lid is blown off many things that were hidden and we have the chnace to change things for the better.

Just a thought.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Some very interesting thoughts, Teta...I hope you're right, and these issues come to the forefront in a big way, and we can manage to really get some headway in taking care of them.

Again, I just find it utterly amazing all the things that have come out of one storm's power. Katrina's managed to do all of this. Wow.

Angela

 

[corianderstem]

Katrina's managed to do all of this.

I know, she's such a bitch!

 

[Scarletwine]

Race and Poverty are greatly at play in this tragedy.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10147.htm
...
African-Americans after the end of slavery were 200 years behind their white counterparts, possessing little and owning nothing, undereducated and destitute, forced to jump a plethora of barriers, forced to live in a society where they were not welcome. For 100 years after winning their freedom African-Americans remained servile entities dependent on the meager wages, jobs and opportunities given them by white America. They owned no land and no business, forcing them to work for new masters under slave-like conditions. The name had changed from slave to laborer, but the result was the same. Still lagging decades if not centuries behind their Anglo counterparts, confronting societal racism and government indifference, the black community never really escaped slavery. While technically free, slave wages and slave income meant slave-like conditions. Without opportunity there was no escape, without escape there was no future.

It took another 100 years for black political power to grow to where civil rights could be afforded them, yet in that time African-Americans still could not escape the tremendous disadvantage slavery had engendered and racism had furthered. Those neighborhoods whites no longer cared to live in became black reservations. Jobs whites and European immigrants no longer wanted were instead given to blacks, the lowest end of the totem pole called American society. The disadvantages remain to this day, as exemplified by New Orleans. Little, if anything, has changed.

With no work in rural America blacks migrated to the large cities, afforded, because of low income and racism, no other housing except those inside the ghetto, the black concentration camp, designed to subjugate, exploit, hinder and incarcerate, implemented so white America would not have to be bothered by the black ‘plague’. Throwing away the keys to black neighborhoods, offering no meaningful employment, eviscerating any semblance of a worthy education, white America pretended the ghetto did not exist, even as millions lived in squalor, without opportunity, devoid futures and a chance for improved livelihoods.

By offering only slave wage jobs, though in very short supply with very large demand, thus making wages decrease, by incapacitating and making impotent education from pre-school through high school, by introducing fire-water, drugs and weapons into the inner city, by making high unemployment levels where blacks live, by offering not an ounce of compassion or opportunity, America’s government, and the elite that control it, have destroyed millions of lives, most teeming with abilities and talents on par with their white counterparts.

Social engineering has assured capitalistic and elite America that blacks remain far behind their white counterparts. Relegated to the slums and ghetto, forced to live in poverty, trapped in an almost inescapable vicious cycle of indigence, blacks thus become the slave of the capitalists, forced to scrap a living from the meager slave wage they are paid, forced to compete among each other for a small number of jobs, lacking the education necessary to move ahead in life and the resources to escape the internment camp the elite have shoved them into.

Without education there is pure ignorance and lack of knowledge. Without livable wages there is only slavery, living paycheck to paycheck, indebted more each day, forced to work innumerable hours for little happiness. Without opportunity thousands of blacks are forced to join the military, seen as the only escape, caste drafted into America’s armed forces, sent to foreign lands to become the cannon fodder of corporate greed. Without employment and education two million black men find themselves imprisoned in the largest prison system the world has ever seen, locked away for petty crimes, never to be seen again, products of environment and social engineering.

Black America is Third World America, exemplified by the devastation we have all witnessed in New Orleans. To sojourn into the inner city is to take a trip into Haiti, Sudan, Congo or Niger, a magic carpet ride into the third world, where poverty pervades, class warfare emanates and futures are lost. The ghetto is a reservation where blacks are to remain, surrounded by invisible barriers and walls seen only by the people residing within them. The inner city is to be forgotten, a place we pretend does not exist. We fail to hear its cries and see its tears and smell its rotting infrastructure, preferring to reside inside our white picket fences, believing in the masquerade of the American dream, where every human being is born equal, enjoying the comforts of living in an equal playing field, with the resources necessary to escape the wrath of a monstrous hurricane.
...

 

[Anthony]

Apologies for having to step in too late, but before this thread continues the Mod team would like to make it perfectly clear that there have been too many posts already, here, that have crossed the line.

We implore everyone to keep a cool head and a courteous tone. If there is yet another complaint concerning this thread I'm afraid it'll be time to call it a day, and it will be closed.

Play nice, please.

Ant.

 

[zonelistener]

Originally posted by U2Bama SOme of them don't want to unionize; many people like one I know very well, in this area, disagree with the political structure of today's organized labor and see the attempts to unionize Alabama's plants as an attempt more designed to build up the political clout of organized labor than to benefit the Alabama auto workforce.

Haven't the plant workers voted down organizing? I thought I heard that.

They are making a livable wage (a lot more than WalMart), although it might not be what the UAW employees make in GM or Ford plants around the country...but that will be changing soon (knowing that GM and Ford aren't in the best of shape themselves).

Unions have lost their clot. People are increasingly not seeing the need for them. They have had their time and place in US history...but they are on the way down right now.

 

[deep]

And here is where you and I may either have to agree to disagree/meet halfway or unfortunately reach an impasse.

In the 3 rural Alabama communities where auto plants have moved in (Vance - Mercedes-Benz; Lincoln - Honda; Hope Hull (Montgomery) - Hyundai), the ensuing development and greatest benefit to the job eceonomy has not been Wal-Marts but the plants themselves and the related supplier plants. None of the towns listed above even has its own Wal-Mart plant and Mercedes has been in Vance for close to 10 years.

Toyota Reveals Limits of Great Southern Jobs Scam
Last month, Toyota made a decision that didn't get a lot of press, but sent ripples of concern through state houses across the South.

The Japanese auto giant announced that it was going to bypass offers of hundreds of millions of dollars in "recruitment incentives" (corporate subsidies) from several Southern states, and would instead set up shop in Ontario, Canada, which was offering much fewer give-aways.

The decision to head north was an embarassment for Southern states eagerly competing to lure Toyota, on several levels. Not only did they lose a trophy job-creator for their state. But the reason Toyota gave for the move was especially damning:

"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States," said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant [...]

Several U.S. states were reportedly prepared to offer more than double [the] subsidy [Southern states were offering]. But Fedchun said much of that extra money would have been eaten away by higher training costs than are necessary for the Woodstock project.

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.

Starting with Alabama's successful bid to lure a Mercedes plant in 1992 with an incentive package that eventually cost over $300 million in tax breaks and other give-aways -- while the state's education system was under court order for lack of funding -- Southern states have shoveled billions of dollars to huge foreign automakers, turning the South into the "new Detroit."

But now companies are waking up to the limitations of locating in a state that cares more about handing out tax breaks than investing in its people.

iTHE GREAT JOBS SCAM

 

[dazzledbylight]

I hope the tragedy down in the gulf has shown us that poverty is still a major problem here in America too. Rarely, if ever in FYM do I see people discussing the plight of the poor here in America. Don't get me wrong the poor people around the world have it rough too, but let's not let them overshadow those in our own backyard.

Why is it that the American poor are rarely discussed here in FYM? Does it make us uncomfortable? Is it more comforting to think that poverty is "over there"?

I'm just throwing those questions out there, I have a difficult time answering them myself.

U2 dem I'm responding w/o looking at other posts first cause i want to go off to the FUn part of the board ...so I hope i am not rehashing too much of what others have SaiD...and thanks for asking the question.

I think i am fairly articulate {yes my typos are legion at times when i'm rushing - since i can't afford the net I'm eitheer limited by time/money at the various places I can use the net publically}, have read/listened to alot over the years and am willing to sometimes put a face/experince to the term "poor".

I have on rare occasions mentioned that I am poor- not destitute but definatley poor, when discussing certain issues here that have or could affect me depending on what cuts are further made in various budgets.
I can discuss other things that i don't get/are eligible for but know others who are/ or are d being denied.

I didn't grow-up poor, I was in a modestly middle class family {our mom's illness took alot of our extra, extra money-- we certainly did a bunch of things middle class people did, but like we never took vactions any further away than New England/So Jersey.
We drove, no airplanes to California or Europe { like some of our other MC friends did}.

I stayed modestly middle-class for a couple of decades until a slew of things sort of one after the other happend that resulted in poverty for me.
Hopefully within these next few years I'll be somewhat climbing out of that. If I'm really, really lucky I could do very well, but it's well, not the best odds- but possible.

Alot of people DON"T like to think about....because it can trip off/trigger their own fears {not the really well off as singles or with family}....of possilbr future poverty. ANd since alot of Americans live from paycheck to paycheck......that's not an unreralistic fear.

Psychologically they might want to push the objects fo their fears away.

AND very importantly to Remember in this American Society...their are several strong themes....some coming up stronger than others at times.... that work against the poor being considered 1st class citizens

there's the 'Pull yourself up by the bootstraps" Rugged Individualist theme. it links to the.....

The Old CAlvanistic " if you're poor than you're a moral failure, the converse being if you're RICH you are {automatically} a virturous person" still runs very strong.

That ALSO TIES INTO HOW the USA values money/work above ALL else....where in Europe if you are poor but a good person, or a poor or person of really modest means who {besides being a good person} has that {# WARNING# using a French Expression} Joi de verve [sp?]..."joy of Life" you are considered a a person of good reputation. what you earn is NOT the top indicator of your worth.

 

[Jamila]

 

[Liesje]

Re: Re: The American poor

The Old CAlvanistic " if you're poor than you're a moral failure, the converse being if you're RICH you are {automatically} a virturous person" still runs very strong.

Actually, Calvinism believes the opposite, that good works (or success -> riches) has no bearing on your status with God b/c only the saving grace of Christ can save you.


Anyway, there's this statistic I remember learning in business...something like X% of people are only 2 paychecks away from poverty.....anyone know the X-amount?

 

[Se7en]

(2) are able to unionize (You may not accept this - they are able to vote on whether to unionize; so far, employees have not favored unionizing. I do not think they should be forced to.) ...

SOme of them don't want to unionize; many people like one I know very well, in this area, disagree with the political structure of today's organized labor and see the attempts to unionize Alabama's plants as an attempt more designed to build up the political clout of organized labor than to benefit the Alabama auto workforce.a

you've brought up an excellent point that probably deserves a discussion in its own right. i don't think people should be forced into unionizing either. if they disregard the opportunity then that is their choice. at least they had the chance. i guess the larger issue here is the disintegration of organized labor's character, for lack of a better term. i can't argue the fact that a lot unions are caught up in political bullshit and really lose sight of their intended purpose. i'm not even sure how democratically controlled most unions are but i imagine your common laborer does not have much direct say in policies and decisions. i don't believe that the union has seen its day as someone else has suggested, but i do believe that current incarnations are failing. if organized labor all but evaporates i cannot imagine the consequences that would have on domestic workers. a complete overhaul and democratic revitalization is in order but would require leadership and organization much further left of center than most people in this country are willing to accept. again, this is a little off topic and could warrant an independent discussion. in fact, i don't even recall what we were talking about.

 

[dazzledbylight]

Re: Re: Re: The American poor

Actually, Calvinism believes the opposite, that good works (or success -> riches) has no bearing on your status with God b/c only the saving grace of Christ can save you.


Anyway, there's this statistic I remember learning in business...something like X% of people are only 2 paychecks away from poverty.....anyone know the X-amount?

oh sorry bout that.... don't want to point fingers in the wrong direction!

well, I know it's in some type of Protestian faith, that I do know.

 

[Se7en]

He said Nissan and Honda have encountered difficulties getting new plants up to full production in recent years in Mississippi and Alabama due to an untrained - and often illiterate - workforce. In Alabama, trainers had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech plant equipment.

here is a good example of why the protestant work ethic is such bullshit. how the hell are people supposed to fend for themselves when they can't even read?

oh but if they weren't so goddamn lazy they would make an effort to learn to read and pull themselves out of their poverty. it's my estimation that a lot of those people are more concerned with putting food on the table and having electricity than being able to read the latest edition of cosmo. this is where organized labor has an opportunity to step in and make a world of difference for these people with literacy classes, etc. it's too bad union bosses are too busy bullshitting in washington.

 

[nbcrusader]

here is a good example of why the protestant work ethic is such bullshit. how the hell are people supposed to fend for themselves when they can't even read?

This is the fault of the protestant work ethic? It couldn't be the school system.

 

[Se7en]

This is the fault of the protestant work ethic? It couldn't be the school system.

were you planning on donating some more tax money to fix the school system or did you just want a voucher to send your kids off to prep school?

 

[zonelistener]

Originally posted by Se7en this is where organized labor has an opportunity to step in and make a world of difference for these people with literacy classes, etc. it's too bad union bosses are too busy bullshitting in washington.

Why is literacy the job of union bosses? Shouldn't the schools teach these people BEFORE they ever have an opportunity to enter into the job market?

Further more, how are the people going to read the union election cards to organize in the first place?

 

[nbcrusader]

Ah, yes. The notion that more money will fix the school system is completely false. Some of the highest per capita spending on students occurs in areas with the lowest test scores.

I'll skip the smart alec prep school remark.

 

[Se7en]

Why is literacy the job of union bosses? Shouldn't the schools teach these people BEFORE they ever have an opportunity to enter into the job market?

what are you talking about? i was simply pointing out an opportunity to make a real difference in workers lives, who for whatever reason, suffer from poor reading skills. it's not that tough.

 

[Se7en]

Ah, yes. The notion that more money will fix the school system is completely false. Some of the highest per capita spending on students occurs in areas with the lowest test scores.

I'll skip the smart alec prep school remark.

the entire sentence was a smart ass remark. one deserves another.

 

[U2Bama]

iTHE GREAT JOBS SCAM

I'm sorry deep, but the title of that article you posted is a bit misleading as to what the contents reveal.

This quote in particular from your article deserves attention:

"The level of the workforce in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the southeastern United States," said Gerry Fedchun, president of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, whose members will see increased business with the new plant [...]

I've seen the same type of statements when Detroit and other traditional, union-dominant marketshave competed against Southern markets for auto plant placements. But in this case, it's important to note that Gerry Fedchun's organization is a business trade interest lobby; in fact, it is is Canada's national association representing OEM producers of parts, equipment, tools, supplies and services for the worldwide automotive industry. It is not Toyota. Perhaps he should not be speaking for Toyota (who, interestingly invested $490 million in Alabama in the form of an engine plant in Huntsville.

Toyota even retorted Mr. Fedchun's lies in a letter to him:

"I can tell you without equivocation that our Alabama work force is literate, well-trained and productive," Toyota Senior Vice President Dennis Cuneo wrote in a letter to Fedchun.

An article from the BIRMINGHAM NEWS appears here and I have posted it below since al.com requires registration:

Developing auto workers not problem
Sunday, July 10, 2005
There is one not-so-secret reason that Alabama continues to see so much growth in its emerging auto industry - and it has nothing to do with incentives.
The key has been how quickly Alabama workers have adapted to the challenges of building sophisticated automobiles such as the M-Class and the Odyssey minivan.
"We just know that our workers are really the strength of the growth and expansions that we've had at the plants throughout the state," said Neal Wade, executive director of the Alabama Development Office.
That's why it's a bit mystifying that the quality of Alabama's auto workers came under attack last week from Gerry Fedchun, head of the Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, a major trade group in Canada.
Fedchun told a reporter for the Canadian Press wire service that Honda has had troubles with its Alabama work force, preventing it from reaching full production at its plant in Lincoln. Not true, considering Honda says it set up its operations in Alabama in record time, ahead of schedule.
Worse, Fedchun told the reporter than workers hired for Alabama auto plants are often illiterate and sometimes had to be shown "pictorials" by trainers so they could figure out how to operate high-tech machinery.
Fedchun's remarks were meant to show why Toyota picked a site in Canada for a new auto plant rather than one in Alabama.
"The level of the work force in general is so high that the training program you need for people, even for people who have not worked in a Toyota plant before, is minimal compared to what you have to go through in the Southeastern United States," Fedchun said.
But the comments drew a quick response from a key executive for Toyota, which has plans to invest $490 million at its engine plant in Huntsville.
"I can tell you without equivocation that our Alabama work force is literate, well-trained and productive," Toyota Senior Vice President Dennis Cuneo wrote in a letter to Fedchun.
Apparently, Toyota has not had to resort to "pictorials."
While it's true many Alabama auto workers were novices when it came to assembling vehicles, it's worth noting the state has a top-notch worker training program that is the only one in the nation to win an ISO 9000 certification from the International Organization for Standardization.
"Not only do we have an educated work force in Alabama, we also have the added advantage of the state's training program - which was ranked No. 1 in the U.S. by Expansion Management magazine," Cuneo wrote.
"Together, the Alabama work force and the state training have resulted in a winning combination for us."
While Alabama undeniably has its share of shortcomings when it comes to the education level of its citizens, developing skilled auto workers has not been a problem.
Need proof?
Here goes: Since 1993, Alabama has soaked up automotive industry investment topping $5 billion. Jerry Underwood is business editor of The News.

And by the way, I don't deny that literacy rates in Alabama are not where they should be. But a better job economy with business partners who invest in their communities can hopefully alleviate that. That is a big reason we seek auto plants and the like.

~U2Alabama

 

[U2Bama]

Haven't the plant workers voted down organizing? I thought I heard that.

They are making a livable wage (a lot more than WalMart), although it might not be what the UAW employees make in GM or Ford plants around the country...but that will be changing soon (knowing that GM and Ford aren't in the best of shape themselves).

Yes, the Mercedes workers have voted it down at least twice, maybe more.

The wages they are making are better against the standard of living in Alabama than the wages made at some plants against the standard of living in their respective union states.

~U2Alabama

 

[zoney!]

what are you talking about? i was simply pointing out an opportunity to make a real difference in workers lives, who for whatever reason, suffer from poor reading skills. it's not that tough.

Do you understand how a labor group gets "unionized"?

Before a union ever gets to create programs like this they need to get the employees to vote the union to orgaize. This is usually done with literature and voting cards, etc. The illiterate would not be able to read the pamphlets, little alone the election cards.

Again....the problem of literacy STARTS with schools, long before people ever get to the job market.

 

[Se7en]

Do you understand how a labor group gets "unionized"?

Before a union ever gets to create programs like this they need to get the employees to vote the union to orgaize. This is usually done with literature and voting cards, etc. The illiterate would not be able to read the pamphlets, little alone the election cards.

none of them can read at all? no one would hold meetings to talk to them? no one can help them recognize who they are or are not voting for? you're talking as if the would be completely deaf, dumb, and blind.

Again....the problem of literacy STARTS with schools, long before people ever get to the job market.

no one is arguing that.