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Old 05-18-2008, 11:24 AM   #1
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Thanks to Blair, US style fundamentalism prospers in Britain

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It's Tuesday morning and the infants' classroom in Carmel School is filled with the sound of children's voices reciting a rhyme. "The Lord has not dealt with us according to our sins nor punished us according to our iniquities." These are not easy words to remember if you're six.

Melony, the teacher, goes on to explain: "Before Jesus came, people who disobeyed God got turned to a pillar of salt. So thank God for Jesus because we can say 'Jesus, I'm sorry' and we don't have to fear getting turned into a pillar of salt, which really happened in the Old Testament."
What a horrible creed to teach kids - such a god, if it exists, is not worth of worship.



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The uncompromising creationist curriculum taught in Carmel has been imported from the US. It is called Accelerated Christian Education; the motto of the Florida-based company who produce it is: "Reaching the world for Christ, one child at a time."

With 50 small schools in the UK teaching this curriculum, a total of more than 2,000 children are being "reached for Christ". Yet these schools are not operating outside the education system. Carmel is a government-endorsed faith school, complete with an Ofsted report that describes the teaching as "satisfactory".

According to the head teacher, David Owens, it's all thanks to a Labour prime minister. "Tony Blair opened the door in the debate on faith schools," he explains. "So it's time for people like us to strike while the iron is hot."

Nice legacy, Tony.
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Old 05-18-2008, 12:19 PM   #2
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Re: Thanks to Blair, US style fundamentalism prospers in Britain

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Originally posted by financeguy


What a horrible creed to teach kids - such a god, if it exists, is not worth of worship.






Nice legacy, Tony.
Is it really so much worse than the Catholic Church's influence in Ireland ?

to the Catholic Church
to the Bush/Blair Fundamentalists
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Old 05-18-2008, 02:35 PM   #3
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Melony, the teacher, goes on to explain: "Before Jesus came, people who disobeyed God got turned to a pillar of salt. So thank God for Jesus because we can say 'Jesus, I'm sorry' and we don't have to fear getting turned into a pillar of salt, which really happened in the Old Testament."
I attended Sunday school and learned all the stories in the Bible, Old Testament.

They were ingrained on my brain.

They also are prevalent in popular culture, movies, and the like.


Lately, I have been thinking there is very little, if anything of value in the "Old Testament".

If you remove the "Holy" concept from those stories, much of the behavior by these "righteous" people > is not very decent at all.

Also, these stories reinforce "prejudice", "intolerance", genocide, infanticide.


We have no problem labling and condemning what we believe is taught in Madrasas.

While all the time in a much more "subtle" way, the teachings we condemn, are the very part and parcel of these "Holy" writings.
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Old 05-18-2008, 02:48 PM   #4
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It looks like you do have a point about Blair,
these are publicly funded schools.

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These schools are not operating outside the education system. Carmel is a government-endorsed faith school, complete with an Ofsted report that describes the teaching as "satisfactory".

According to the head teacher, David Owens, it's all thanks to a Labour prime minister. "Tony Blair opened the door in the debate on faith schools," he explains. "So it's time for people like us to strike while the iron is hot."

The school is part of the Carmel Christian Centre, one of a growing number of locally based hard-line Christian organisations. The aim of these groups is to spread a fundamentalist form of Christianity. The followers believe that the Bible is literally true and not open to any degree of interpretation. They are the only "true" Christians because they have confessed their sins before Jesus and become "born again". Those who have not converted are damned.

Here is the article.
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Old 05-18-2008, 06:36 PM   #5
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Quote:
The Lord has not dealt with us according to our sins nor punished us according to our iniquities
Just a contrast between old and new testament. For Christians, not a bad creed at all.

Pre-jesus bad. Post jesus good. That's kind of the point of Christianity, no?
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Old 05-18-2008, 09:17 PM   #6
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It isn't US style fundamentalism, that isn't subsidised by the state.
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Old 05-19-2008, 12:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris


Just a contrast between old and new testament. For Christians, not a bad creed at all.

Pre-jesus bad. Post jesus good. That's kind of the point of Christianity, no?
Right.
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Old 05-19-2008, 02:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep

Lately, I have been thinking there is very little, if anything of value in the "Old Testament".

Really?

Please consider the wisdom to be gleaned from Proverbs, the prudent advice in Ecclesiastes.

The full spectrum of human emotion found in the impassioned prose of Psalms.

The literary value in the stories of Genesis, Cain & Abel, Exodus, David & Goliath, the Battle of Jericho, Jonah, the Tower of Babel or Noah's Ark.

The history of a people.

The foundation of Western law and morality.

Or, if nothing else, think of U2 without Beautiful Day, Gloria, Wake Up Dead Man, Bullet The Blue Sky, Yahweh, 40 or an iconic tree.
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Old 05-19-2008, 03:47 PM   #9
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The school's prospectus describes it as an 'independent fee-paying day school,' which *I think* denotes that it ISN'T publically funded (one of our English posters could perhaps correct me here). Of course it would still have to pass regular government inspections to ensure its students are being adequately prepared in the traditional academic subjects--that much applies to any school and is a separate issue from funding. The school is affiliated with a registered charity, the Carmel Centre, which may or may not mean said charity receives public funding, which in turn may or may not be transferrable to its schools--I don't know enough about UK law as regards that sort of thing to be sure.
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Or, if nothing else, think of U2 without Beautiful Day, Gloria, Wake Up Dead Man, Bullet The Blue Sky, Yahweh, 40 or an iconic tree.
Does deep even listen to U2?
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Old 05-20-2008, 01:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


Really?



The literary value in the stories of
Genesis,
Cain & Abel,
Exodus,
David & Goliath,
the Battle of Jericho,
Jonah,
the Tower of Babel or
Noah's Ark.

The history of a people.

The foundation of Western law and morality.
It is funny there was a time that I considered these stories and others like them very valuable, probably the first half of my life.

Then I looked at them the same way I would any other story that was not "given" extra value for being "Holy".

At that point the "rose colored" glasses fell off.

Genesis is a fable, there are a lot of creation fables. This one is not so special. Any objective analysis would conclude this.

Cain & Abel
What value? The burnt offerings are just a hold over from 'pagan' beliefs.
To think that any god would require "Burnt offerings" is silly.

Exodus

So people are only in Bondage and freed from Bondage by God's intervention?

This has value for people that want to have power over others by claiming that they are God's representatives.

David & Goliath
If this is a true story, is it even miraculous? What is so extraordinary about a projectile striking a person in the head, and killing them?


BinLaden and the 911 Hi-jackers falling the Towers, as hideous as it is, could be considered more "miraculous" in the scope of a "smaller" opponent winning a battle over a "larger" opponent.


Battle of Jericho,

Last time I read this is was pretty terrible, they invaded and slaughtered a whole innocent town, they even butchered innocent children, babies, and old folk, I believe they killed every living creature.

Jonah
One more obvious fable, there are much better

Tower of Babel
What was this "Tower of Babel"?

A place designed to unite all the people so they could have one community, economy, and language for human endeavors. The tallest structure ever built. Sounds like a "World Trade Center".
No wonder God would want/allow it to be destroyed.

That is if you believe that God is against people coming together?

Noah's Ark

Aside from it being a fable and aiding and abetting Haggee and all others that want to claim floods and earthquakes and these natural occurring phenomenon are "God" punishing the wicked.






My main problem with many of these stories are that they are designed to discredit "groups" of people to justify hegemony over said groups.

Claiming it is God's will.
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Old 05-20-2008, 03:39 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep

BinLaden and the 911 Hi-jackers falling the Towers, as hideous as it is, could be considered more "miraculous" in the scope of a "smaller" opponent winning a battle over a "larger" opponent.
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon

Why not keep it in context?


Which of these two events do you believe are more easily accomplished ?




Quote:
David & Goliath

If this is a true story, is it even miraculous? What is so extraordinary about a projectile striking a person in the head, and killing them?


BinLaden and the 911 Hi-jackers

falling the Towers, as hideous as it is, could be considered more "miraculous" in the scope of a "smaller" opponent winning a battle over a "larger" opponent.
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:31 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


Why not keep it in context?


Which of these two events do you believe are more easily accomplished ?
1. Goliath wasn't just some guy off the street. And the rock probably wasn't that large if it could fit into a slingshot. Can you hit a big dude on the temple with a rock? Sure. Will it kill him? No fucking way.


2. Anybody who can successfully smuggle a gun onto a plane can attempt to hijack it. It was even more possible in pre-9/11 America.


And what's this about context? It was a ridiculous comparison in any context.
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by LemonMelon


1. Goliath wasn't just some guy off the street. And the rock probably wasn't that large if it could fit into a slingshot. Can you hit a big dude on the temple with a rock? Sure. Will it kill him? No fucking way.


2. Anybody who can successfully smuggle a gun onto a plane can attempt to hijack it. It was even more possible in pre-9/11 America.


And what's this about context? It was a ridiculous comparison in any context.

A sling was a very common weapon used for hunting and falling game.

So falling a man is not that difficult.



Quote:
The sling is very inexpensive, and easy to construct. It has historically been used for hunting game and combat.
Sling as a weapon in combat


A hi-jacking itself is not that extraordinary

it was the co-ordinated attack with both planes going right into the towers, and then the complete collapse, that was extra-ordinary,
and the fact that BinLaden still lives 7 years later could lead people to conclude that this story has "miraculous properties.

Do I believe it?
Just as much as I believe David and Goliath is "miraculous".
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:59 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


It is funny there was a time that I considered these stories and others like them very valuable, probably the first half of my life.

Then I looked at them the same way I would any other story that was not "given" extra value for being "Holy".

At that point the "rose colored" glasses fell off.

Well ok, but I was getting at "The literary value in the stories of..."

I don't believe in cyclops, Hercules or Mt Olympus but the literary value of Greek mythology cannot be denied. Every child should read them.
So it is with the Old Testament. Whether you believe it's stories to be narratives, metaphors, parables or outright fiction, they are still wonderful stories. And one must be knowledgeable of them to fully appreciate much of Western art, thought and philosophy.

Reason enough I should think.
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:26 PM   #17
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I can agree with what you have written except the part that they are "wonderful" stories. There may be some, but many are terrible.

I also believe if they had to be taught in the same contexts as "myths" and "fables" on par with Olympus and the like.

"religious" people would be up in arms. Can you imagine if a teacher told a student his "religious" beliefs were on par with believing in Cyclops?
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Old 05-20-2008, 07:02 PM   #18
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I don't have any problem with the idea that the Genesis creation, Cain and Abel, David and Goliath, Jericho, Jonah, and Babel narratives are probably folkloric in origin, or that the Exodus and Flood narratives almost certainly didn't happen in the manner or on the scale described. Even if I didn't think that, I don't see why the Exodus story inevitably implies every believing reader's eternal right to seize "power over others by claiming that they are God's representatives," why the Flood account inevitably implies any and every flood is obviously deserved divine punishment on one's preferred villains, or why the Jericho story inevitably confers an open-ended free pass to invade and slaughter whomever one likes anytime.

It sometimes seems as if you still have your nose so far out of joint about the (apparently) deeply bigoted people who taught you the Bible as a child and the (apparently) highly racist, sexist, and "genocidal" lessons they encouraged you to draw from it that decades later, you're still going around projecting your own former interpretations onto anyone who identifies as Christian (or worse, I suppose, Jewish) and assuming they all see it through the same "rose-colored glasses" you once did. As long as there are ideas, stories and ideologies out there for people to find common cause through and take inspiration from, there will always be those who use them to justify all kinds of viciousness as acts in the service of 'truth' or 'justice', requiring future students of those ideas to sift through the good and the bad with discernment and conscience--qualities for which there are no foolproof formulas. Much of what Thomas Jefferson wrote about black people I find disturbing and morally corrupt, yet I also consider him a brilliant statesman and political thinker and would disagree with anyone who suggests it's 'dangerous' for me to see him in that way lest I become more vulnerable to subconsciously imbibing his less elevated ideas. And no, considering the 'Old Testament' "holy" as opposed to Jefferson's writings (though I doubt my understanding of "holy" much resembles yours) doesn't magically activate some drooling inner genocidal barbarian in me who is incapable of reading, listening and thinking critically, just as I would in any other arena of life. I wasn't raised to study scripture nor anything else that way.
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