Terrifying Statistic

[Marko]

Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
MissZooropa, what I'm asking can be looked at as an equation:

1. Abortion = An Acceptable Choice
You have stated that you believe individuals should have the right to choose an abortion.

2. Abortion = Murder
You have stated that you equate abortion with murder.

Would you then follow this equation to it's logical next point?:

3. If Abortion = Murder, and Abortion = Acceptable Choice, then Murder = An Acceptable Choice

Basically, do you think murder should always be an acceptable choice for someone in an extremely difficult situation (such as having an unwanted child)? If not, where do you draw the line?

[This message has been edited by Spiral_Staircase (edited 02-11-2002).]

I wanted to say something like that - I belive that abortion is murder, and if it is murder than it's totaly black and white...

on the other hand, if you don't think it's murder than it's all gray to you, and I think that you're wrong. After only 25 days baby's brain is already working, sending electric waves... I belive that life begins when the soul is concived, and not the body, and soul comes to life with the first second...
don't tell me that I'm a man and I don't think objectively. Go up and read my earlier post (my first in this thread) and you'll see that I'm not trying to be holier than you...

and KhanadaRhodes don't start talking about rapes and incest - it's the reason of 0,001% of all abortions so it's no argument...

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"Everyone loves me
everyone thinks I'm georgeous
they wait for their turn to meet me..." - Me, 2001.

[KevM]

Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
MissZooropa, what I'm asking can be looked at as an equation:

1. Abortion = An Acceptable Choice
You have stated that you believe individuals should have the right to choose an abortion.

2. Abortion = Murder
You have stated that you equate abortion with murder.

Would you then follow this equation to it's logical next point?:

3. If Abortion = Murder, and Abortion = Acceptable Choice, then Murder = An Acceptable Choice

Basically, do you think murder should always be an acceptable choice for someone in an extremely difficult situation (such as having an unwanted child)? If not, where do you draw the line?

I thought the line was drawn at abortion ...

If Terrorist = Murderer, and Terrorist = Muslim, then Muslim = Murderer (same logic as above)

mur·der (mûrdr)
n.
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

So if abortions are legal then they are not murder.

Not that that makes abortion moral or anything.

[Klodomir]

That is a shocking statistic, and the Swedish stats are even worse! But in my mind, whether you're pro-life or pro-choice, the real question we should be asking ourselves is why are all these women getting pregnant in the first place?

I'm actually to a certain extent pro-choice, but it has to be an informed choice, and it looks to me as if abortion is far too easy an option these days.

[U2girl]

Well i've always believed the abortion is a woman's choice and her right.
It's her body - she makes her own decisions.
Just like she'll have to live with it for the rest of her life.
Women who do abortions shouldn't be questioned or judged by anyone.


Having said that, i do think abortion is the ABSOLUTE last option - before keeping the baby, adoption etc... and of course every woman needs to think ahead and practice safe sex if she's not ready for a child yet.

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Angela Harlem:

Im not sure of my stance on whether it is murder. It may not be right or just, but I am not going to be presumptuous enough to leap in and make a decision on something that in actuality I know nothing about, that being it is different for everyone, and I know nothing about any of those individuals in your statistic. It is an absolutely terrifying decision.

I don't have to know any of these women to believe that abortion is murder. To me, a woman's frame of mind/state of being has no impact at all on whether abortion is murder. I believe that life bgins at conception. Therefore, any time you purposefully end a life in the womb, it is murder. That's not judging the women who have an abortion. That's judging the action that far too many women seem to be making. If something is terribly wrong with society, those who know it is wrong have the duty to speak out against it.

[Spiral_Staircase]

Originally posted by KevM:
I thought the line was drawn at abortion ...

If Terrorist = Murderer, and Terrorist = Muslim, then Muslim = Murderer (same logic as above)

mur·der (mûrdr)
n.
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

So if abortions are legal then they are not murder.

Not that that makes abortion moral or anything.

KevM,

I should say that I used the "equation" format, just to try to clarify things. Obviously, it's not exactly right. I think we all understand that all muslims are not murderers just as, although I used Acceptable Choice = Murder, I'm not saying that all acceptable choices are murder.
Regarding the definition of murder, I was basing my point on the fact that MissZooropa equates abortion with murder. You say the line is drawn at abortion. I guess I just feel like that's a rather abitrary point if you consider it murder to kill someone before or after their born.

MissZooropa, thanks for your honesty.

[spinninghead77]

I belive in pro-choice. I myself would like to belive that I would never have an abortion, but fortunatly, I never found myself having to make that decision.

The main reason why Abortion should be legal, is that in communities where it is still illegal abortions happen. The people who are doing them are not necessarily doctor's, and proper safety cautions are not necessarily taken. Many women die because they cannot carry out a pregnancy and they go for a 'back door' abortion.

All that said, I do belive that it should be the last step taken. People must be responsible for their own actions and ensure that they are using a reliable method of birth control.

[joyfulgirl]

I'm late on this discussion...

There will never be agreement on this issue because it is a personal, spiritual issue that each person must decide within themselves, within their own hearts. It is my personal, spiritual belief that the soul has not entered the fetus, therefore, it is not murder. Since this cannot be proved by science or religion, it is up to the individual to follow her own heart and conscience, and is not a decision that can be dictated to another by their religion. I am not a Christian, but I believe in a higher power and if I were in facing this decision I would ask for guidance and have faith that my decision either way had God's blessing.

As I've mentioned before, most insurance plans in the U.S. cover Viagara for men but not birth control for women. There are MANY issues that need to be addressed as to why so many women end up with unwanted pregnancies.

I agree with Angela.

[pax]

I want to know where all of you live who think that women have "free" and "easy" access to abortions. Where I live (Northeast PA, in the U.S.), the closest place to get an abortion is in the next state.

And I, by the way, am with those who say that this issue will never be resolved. Period. The categorical imperative cannot be deciphered here.



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If you cannot live together in here, you cannot live together out there, let me tell ya. --Bono

You've got to cry without weeping, talk without speaking, scream without raising your voice... --Bono

[RufusYoungblood]

Originally posted by KevM:
I thought the line was drawn at abortion ...

If Terrorist = Murderer, and Terrorist = Muslim, then Muslim = Murderer (same logic as above)

This logic is flawed.

All terrorists are murderers - true enough.
All terrorists are muslims - FALSE.
All muslims are terrorists - also FALSE.

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I don't know you, and you don't know the half of it.

[This message has been edited by RufusYoungblood (edited 02-13-2002).]

[KhanadaRhodes]

Originally posted by Marko:
KhanadaRhodes don't start talking about rapes and incest - it's the reason of 0,001% of all abortions so it's no argument...

it's more valid than the argument you're trying to make. saying abortion is a black and white issue is missing the point. fine, you're against abortion. bully for you, that's all right. i don't have a problem with people having different opinions than me, although i wonder if you feel the same. however, depending on the situation i was in, i might even think it appropriate to consider an abortion.
i'm not saying men can't understand what it's like or anything. but people have different morals and i'm sure there are many things you view moral that others think is a sin. so don't attack my morals.

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and your heart beats so slow through the sleet and driving snow, across the fields of mourning lights in the distance...
ME! all day, every day!
"...a poptart in pants..." -- elizabeth

[KhanadaRhodes]

Originally posted by joyfulgirl:
There will never be agreement on this issue because it is a personal, spiritual issue that each person must decide within themselves, within their own hearts. It is my personal, spiritual belief that the soul has not entered the fetus, therefore, it is not murder. Since this cannot be proved by science or religion, it is up to the individual to follow her own heart and conscience, and is not a decision that can be dictated to another by their religion. I am not a Christian, but I believe in a higher power and if I were in facing this decision I would ask for guidance and have faith that my decision either way had God's blessing.

As I've mentioned before, most insurance plans in the U.S. cover Viagara for men but not birth control for women. There are MANY issues that need to be addressed as to why so many women end up with unwanted pregnancies.

I agree with Angela.

i agree. the choice should ultimately be left up to the woman to decide. the father should have some say as well (that is if he doesn't disappear when he finds out she's pregnant) but it is a personal matter. i could bring up some extremist pro-life people bombing and murdering clinics, doctors, and expectant mothers, but i won't.
also, isn't it nice that some insurance companies want to help a man to have sex, but won't help a woman to prevent pregnancies? i'm lucky that i currently have a good insurance program that covers about everything. it sucks that some don't.

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and your heart beats so slow through the sleet and driving snow, across the fields of mourning lights in the distance...
ME! all day, every day!
"...a poptart in pants..." -- elizabeth

[Miss MacPhisto]

Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
It is truly a hotly contested question of whether a fetus is a human life, but the consequences of the answer are very serious and should be mentioned.

Although I have mixed feelings about abortion, esp given the overpopulation problem,but I draw the line at the time the fetus developes a heartbeat. I believe thats at 6 weeks. If it has a heartbeat, no one can claim it is not alive.
Ive heard from people who worked at abortion clinics. Some babies would survive the abortion. The Dr would order the nurse to put them in a bowl of water, and drown them.
That said, abortion must always be legal in the cases of rape, incest, in cases where the mothers life is in danger, etc, and in cases when the baby would be born with severe deformities or illnesses, etc.
An unborn babys life isnt as important as an adults, but I do wish the pro-choice people would shut the hell up about it just being a blob of tissue. Thats BS.
Then again, if a woman wasnt allowed to have an abortion, and had the baby, that kid would certainly become one fucked up person, with THAT for a "mother" . She wouldnt be able to raise it right. "Gee son/daughter, I woulda had you killed, but...it was illegal!"
Isnt life tough enough????

[KevM]

Originally posted by RufusYoungblood:
This logic is flawed.

All terrorists are murderers - true enough.
All terrorists are muslims - FALSE.
All muslims are terrorists - also FALSE.

ok .. my counter example wasn't perfect ... but just change muslims to people (just to be more general) then we have

All terrorists are murderers - True (there is the possiblity that this is false, but lets just assume it's true)
All terrorists are people - This true (as far as i know)
All people are murderers - not true

So this argument is not valid:
If All terrorists are murderers and all terrorists are people then all people are murderers

making that argument a counter example to this one:
If all abortions are murder and all abortions are an acceptable choice then all murders are an acceptable choice

but if that was ended with then some murders are an acceptable choice it would be correct.

The origial point being that just because someone thinks one kind of murder is ok doesn't mean they think all types of murders are ok.

[This message has been edited by KevM (edited 02-16-2002).]

[RavenStar]

I have something to add to this.
If you say the fetus is alive therefore it is bad to kill it then what about bacteria? Bacteria is alive but people see no wrong in killing it. I know it might seem wierd compairing bacteria to a fetus but hey, a life is a life. Isn't it?

[Angela Harlem]

Fascinating topic you resurrected Raven.

1 in 3 prengnancies end. 1 in 3 sperm and egg combinations do not make it to full life. Mother nature sure is cruel for all those abortions she causes.

[Danospano]

1.6 million abortions? Hmmm....You know that if those babies HAD been born you'd be complaining about how they were lazy, leches living off wel-fare that was coming out of your wallet.

[Achtung Bubba]

I don't know what's worse, you stereotyping conservatives as being so heartless as to call babies "lazy," or you implying that every child aborted would have ended up on welfare.

[Angela Harlem]

Danospano thats not really fair. For every argument Bubba (for example) has, you have a counter argument.

[Klodomir]

In Greenland they now have more abortions than births.

Yes, you read that right. More abortions than births. And you can blame colonization for it.