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Old 02-11-2002, 09:22 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem:
Im curious as to how someone can maintain the right to judge a statistic like this, yet not judge the individual. There are 1,330,000 'stories' in that statistic, all of them individual. I reckon I'd go so far as to say there are 1,330,000 different reasons for an abortion in that statistic. 80's did your source happen to mention those 1,330,000 reasons?
Angela, for me and many others, abortion is murder. When I see murder stats, I don't say "Well, let's not judge, because we don't know the reasons". I'll tell you what I am judging. I am judging the fact that something is dead wrong with our society when that many people either think it is their only choice or don't care at all. That's what I'm judging. And I also think someone MUCH higher than me is judging the situation, if you know what I mean.

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Old 02-11-2002, 11:32 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem:
Im curious as to how someone can maintain the right to judge a statistic like this, yet not judge the individual. There are 1,330,000 'stories' in that statistic, all of them individual. I reckon I'd go so far as to say there are 1,330,000 different reasons for an abortion in that statistic. 80's did your source happen to mention those 1,330,000 reasons?
Angela, for me and many others, abortion is murder. When I see murder stats, I don't say "Well, let's not judge, because we don't know the reasons". I'll tell you what I am judging. I am judging the fact that something is dead wrong with our society when that many people either think it is their only choice or don't care at all. That's what I'm judging. And I also think someone MUCH higher than me is judging the situation, if you know what I mean.

This thread will go to histora - I actualy agree both with Bubba and 80's - until now I never agreed with any one of them...

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Old 02-11-2002, 12:15 PM   #23
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Wow, I did not realize that the numbers were so high - so I checked it out for myself. This is from a Pro-life source but read what it says:

...the following statistics are based on research published by the Alan Guttmacher Institute, special research affiliate of Planned Parenthood Federation of America--the nation's largest provider and promoter of abortion. Estimates for 1997 and 1998 are based on trends from previous years.

In the past, AGI has estimated a possible 3-6% rate of underreporting. The following uses the lower figure.


It reported 1996 abortions at 1,365,730 in America - and estimated the same for 1997 and 1998.
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Old 02-11-2002, 12:48 PM   #24
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By the way, my stats are from the National Center for Health Statistics.
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Old 02-11-2002, 01:01 PM   #25
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I think AngelaHarlem made a great point


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Old 02-11-2002, 01:13 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
However, it's US stats only.
since this wasn't posted until *after* i made my post...*shrugs*
the numbers may not be the same, but i still hold to my beliefs.

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Old 02-11-2002, 01:14 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
In 1997 (latest stats available), about 6,192,000 pregnancies ended. Of that number, do you know how many ended in abortion?
1,330,000.
That's over 1/6!
That's friggin' insane. What the hell is happening?
First a question, was it really 6 000 000 ENDED pregnancies? The figure seems to be the total number of pregnancies, delivered baby or not. I compared it to the Swedish statistics and the numbers can't be that different. If this in fact IS the number of ENDED pregnancies, I would just out of curiosity like to have the number of total pregnancies that should be like an unreal number of them.

To my view on this. I don't like to interfer normally but to say anything before you actually are in the situation with the unwanted child INSIDE you and know that you will have it there for another nine month and then not want it or not be able to take care of it but still have feelings for it, noone has the right to say anything!

I can indeed understand and respect how strongly some of you feel in this issue but everything is not black or white. I think the ones here with the strongest belief is men, right? You can never end up in the situation. You will now probably say that a man can feel just as stronge and are as pregnant as the woman but I'm sorry, you can never be. It's easy to say when you actually just can take your stuff and run away and never ever see the girl or the baby again. A girl can NEVER do that. I guess you are all responsible men and would never leave your girl if she happens to get pregnant unwanted but there are ALOT of guys who runs as far as they can if they get to know their girl is pregnant. If she goes through the pregnancy she has a connection to that child forever even if she gives it up to a foster home after it's born, as you say is a solution to abortion. It's not that simple.
You make it really easy for yourself to put it in black or white and it feels like you think it's an easy decision that you just leave behind when it's done. It's NOT, an abortion is something the woman carry with her for the rest of her life with the question wether it was right or not.

What a I know is that if it ever happens to me, I will be devistated because I do feel in my heart that it is a murder but the practical me just says that I can't go on with the pregnancy.
Me too is scared by the numbers of abortion, and I promise you, you don't want to see the swedish ones....

Once again, I do respect your opinion but how strong you ever feel about something you should always be able to see the other side of the coin. Nothing is just black or white even if it might be to you.

Thank you!

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Old 02-11-2002, 01:15 PM   #28
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me too. is a victim of incest or rape supposed to keep the baby because it's morally "right?" if they're in school and unable to "disappear" for several months to have the baby and arrange its adoption. not everyone has the luxury of that.

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Old 02-11-2002, 01:16 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissZooropa:
First a question, was it really 6,000,000 ENDED pregnancies?
since the abortion rate is 1/6 of this, i'm assuming the other 5/6 are miscarriages, or even worse, the mother died while pregnant.

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Old 02-11-2002, 01:42 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by KhanadaRhodes:
since the abortion rate is 1/6 of this, i'm assuming the other 5/6 are miscarriages, or even worse, the mother died while pregnant.

Compared to the swedish stats it was about 100000 born babys, 500 born dead and 30000 abortion. I have troubles seeing 180000 (30000 to be 1/6 of ended pregnancies if I roughly compared with the US stats) ended pregnancies here while only 100000 babys were born. You see the missed logic here? More then double of ended pregnancies compared to born babies. Maybe it's just me that have a hard time seeing 2/3 of all pregnancies being ended, one way or the other.

If you take 6000000 pregnancies to 250 000 000 citizen in US, the figures seems more realistic compared to 100000 to 9 000 000 here in Sweden.

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Old 02-11-2002, 01:58 PM   #31
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MissZooropa,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I can see where you're coming from. I know you probably don't want to get into a big argument on this, and neither do I. But I found your response very interesting. You said that you believe that abortion is murder, but that you also believe that a woman should have the right to make that choice. I've never been pregnant, so I'm not claiming to have special insight into what a pregnant woman would feel when faced with this situation. I'm just following through to some possible scenarios and how a particular belief system (in this case, yours) would play out.
Some women don't ever realize they are pregnant, and others are able to hide it, until they go into labor. What if this happens to a woman who, for all the reasons you listed above, doesn't want to keep the child. And she ends up giving birth at home, or in a bathroom somewhere. So she throws the newborn baby in the trash, where it dies. Is this murder acceptable? Should it be legal? What if a woman realizes 6 months or a year after giving birth that she should have had an abortion, that she can't afford to care for the baby. Can she kill it now? I *really* don't mean for this to sound harsh or antagonistic (but I'm sure it does). I think that you would agree that all of these situations involve murder, and you've stated that abortion falls into that category as well. So where would you draw the line?
I realize this question is directed toward MissZooropa, but others please feel free to respond. Again, I hope you understand what I'm saying. I'm *not* saying this is an easy choice to make. But I do think there is a clear, however difficult, right choice.
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Old 02-11-2002, 02:14 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by MissZooropa:
First a question, was it really 6 000 000 ENDED pregnancies? The figure seems to be the total number of pregnancies, delivered baby or not. I compared it to the Swedish statistics and the numbers can't be that different. If this in fact IS the number of ENDED pregnancies, I would just out of curiosity like to have the number of total pregnancies that should be like an unreal number of them.
It's the number of pregnancies that concluded in 1997 ( birth, abortion, adoption, etc.)
National Center for Health Statistics

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Old 02-11-2002, 02:22 PM   #33
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Spiral Staircase: I'm not really sure what you mean. But I'm pro abortion and because of all the situations you listed I do think abortion is right, or whatever you want to call it.

I thought I made it pretty clear that I was for abortion. BUT at the same time I see it as one kind of murder or rather killing when I see to how I would look at it if I ended up in the situation. I can't say what I would do if I got pregnant now, I DON't want a child, I wouldn't be able to take care of it and I would never be able to give it up if I went through the pregnancy. Probably I would do an abortion, but it would be with a troubled heart, just as troubled as if I decided to go on with the pregnancy.

You see where I am at? I can't draw the line for myself and even less for others. I guess that's where I am. Everything is not black or white. And even if I was sure about MY decision I can't decide or judge everyone else. I would never look down on anyone who decides to go through an abortion, I'm sure they have enough of guilt as it is, they are judging themselves, I guess.

Don't know if I made myself any clearer, my real point I guess is that this is a question that isn't black or white and becomes even more grey if you actuallly end up in the situation.

[This message has been edited by MissZooropa (edited 02-11-2002).]
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Old 02-11-2002, 04:04 PM   #34
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Oki, Spiral I see what you mean. I'm afraid I don't have an answer. I can't say exactly when I think it's not ok to "murder" any longer. I don't think it's ok to do it when it's born, ok? As far as that I'm sure. I also do think that it's legal to abort way to far into the pregnancy. I don't know the rules in US But here I think it's ok until week 24 or something.

But I said that I would consider it murder if I did it, in my own mind, my own thoughts about it, concerning my decision in the hypothetic situation. That doesn't mean that I judge others for "murder" if they did it, I would only judge myself.

I'm sorry I can't give you exact thoughts here, I guess it only shows how difficult this is. I know I'm talking against myself, because I know that somewhere is the line when I think it's ok to do an abortion and I don't know WHY or WHERE. In my logic, life is life, but still it isn't in the fact, the actual situation..... confusing, I know....
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Old 02-11-2002, 04:04 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marko:
I wanted to say something like that - I belive that abortion is murder, and if it is murder than it's totaly black and white...

on the other hand, if you don't think it's murder than it's all gray to you, and I think that you're wrong. After only 25 days baby's brain is already working, sending electric waves... I belive that life begins when the soul is concived, and not the body, and soul comes to life with the first second...
don't tell me that I'm a man and I don't think objectively. Go up and read my earlier post (my first in this thread) and you'll see that I'm not trying to be holier than you...
and KhanadaRhodes don't start talking about rapes and incest - it's the reason of 0,001% of all abortions so it's no argument...
True, Marko, true. I've always hated it when people say "if you're not a woman, you wouldn't understand". Well, I may not be able to understand what it's like to be pregnant, but I it's not like I haven't had problems myself. And the way I see it, abortion is murder. And there is never any justification for murder.
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Old 02-11-2002, 04:08 PM   #36
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rape does not have to end in abortion. My best friend and her precious son are living proof of that.
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Old 02-11-2002, 04:27 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4:
rape does not have to end in abortion. My best friend and her precious son are living proof of that.
Sula I don't know way, it's totaly beyond me, but lately i realy love you...

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Old 02-12-2002, 03:19 AM   #38
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What an absolutely horrifying figure, how monstruous.

I am pro-life myself, but I realise that not everything is black and white, sometimes hard choices and difficulties arise, THATS why I say people (COUPLES in particular, it takes two to tango) who choose to go through with an abortion should have to pay a healthy fine that increases by the abortion. It would make people think, as well help prevent such, at best, controversial actions.

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Old 02-12-2002, 03:20 AM   #39
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80's I dont know those women, I dont know their reasons. Therefore I dont believe I am in a position to hold any kind of judgement on them. You cannot disagree with something like this until you know the reasons why. Thats my belief anyway. You also said yourself the final Judgement will come later...which is another thing. I am not going to assume that role and think its my 'right' or place to begin to understand why every single one of those women did what they did.
Im not sure of my stance on whether it is murder. It may not be right or just, but I am not going to be presumptuous enough to leap in and make a decision on something that in actuality I know nothing about, that being it is different for everyone, and I know nothing about any of those individuals in your statistic. It is an absolutely terrifying decision.
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Old 02-12-2002, 03:35 AM   #40
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MissZooropa, what I'm asking can be looked at as an equation:

1. Abortion = An Acceptable Choice
You have stated that you believe individuals should have the right to choose an abortion.

2. Abortion = Murder
You have stated that you equate abortion with murder.

Would you then follow this equation to it's logical next point?:

3. If Abortion = Murder, and Abortion = Acceptable Choice, then Murder = An Acceptable Choice

Basically, do you think murder should always be an acceptable choice for someone in an extremely difficult situation (such as having an unwanted child)? If not, where do you draw the line?

[This message has been edited by Spiral_Staircase (edited 02-11-2002).]
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