Terminally Ill Man To Be Executed

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A_Wanderer said:
Many Christians seem to have an issue with abortion as well as euthanasia on the basis that it somehow violates the sanctity of life. A proportion of these Christians also support the use of capital punishment.

How is a human being who has probably commited a terrible crime have a life that is less sacred than a foetus or brain dead body?

i never will make the connection how anti death penalty ppl try and equate a innocent baby's life that made no choices, with a convicted murderer who made choices.
i do not think a muderer is a sacred human being, a new born baby is much more sacred of a being to most people, even you were at one time wanderer.

i'm also against all forms of suicide.

dbs
 
deep said:
:yawn:

I know A_Wanderer did ask
Does your religion.....


but laws of countries or states should not be set up by religious dictates

no Shia law, or
Vatican law
or
SeaGull laws
for the general populace.

Please, :wink:




so you would honor and obey shia law.

Stone me now.

stoning.jpg

no, i would move from that country.

dbs
 
diamond said:


Murder =taking innocent life, what part of that don't you understand?

Murder = killing someone else, with premeditated intent

what part of that don't you understand?
 
diamond said:


i never will make the connection how anti death penalty ppl try and equate a innocent baby's life that made no choices, with a convicted murderer who made choices.
i do not think a muderer is a sacred human being, a new born baby is much more sacred of a being to most people, even you were at one time wanderer.

But this has no Biblical backing, just your own personal emotions...
 
U2isthebest said:
You're probably also familiar with the New Testament story of the woman caught in adultery. The Pharisees dragged her before Jesus to try and catch him in a compromising situation. Would he follow the Mosaic law that he was supposed to follow as a "good Jew" or would he follow the Roman law that forbade the death penalty?
Roman law certainly didn't forbid the death penalty. I'm guessing you meant 'in cases of adultery', though that's not fully correct either--Roman law from 18 BC on recognized the right of the aggrieved huband to kill his 'cuckolder'...just not his adulterous wife (of course under Mosaic law both could be executed, provided the limitations imposed on capital crimes trials by Jewish law were observed). Since only Roman authorities, not the Sanhedrin, held capital case jurisdiction in Roman Judaea, the likely "compromising situation" involved here is that Jesus would have violated those terms by rendering any "verdict" whatsoever on his own. Of course Jewish law wouldn't have permitted him to summarily declare a verdict on the spot, either, but presumably that wasn't per se what they were asking for--the conceit appears to be that they simply wanted him to 'rule' whether she could be executed if found guilty by trial or not, and technically either a direct "yes" or "no" could be considered a 'subversive' usurpation of capital-case jurisdiction on his part. Typically, he threw the responsibility for the decision back on them instead--in a way which insinuates without actually saying so that he recognizes an attempt to legally entrap him is afoot (potentially a capital crime in itself, under Jewish law).

Whether or not a "good Jew" at the time would have said (or thought) "yes" probably depended on who you were talking to. In the histories of the Sanhedrin presented in both the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmuds, it's stated that in 30 AD the Sanhedrin, under the influence of its Hillelite Pharisee members (i.e., disciples of former Sanhedrin head Hillel, who was dead by that time), ruled that in view of all the limitations imposed by Jewish law on capital crimes proceedings--and the presumed intent behind those limitations--capital punishment was best seen as a "hypothetical" maximum penalty, ultimately unfit for flawed human judicial systems to mete out. This was precisely the argument used long before to abrogate the Deuteronomic injunction to kill a rebellious son, and in view of this, subsequent Jewish tradition has tended to interpret the Sanhedrin decision as effectively nullifying religious justification of the death penalty, despite not condemning it in abstract principle. Of course in all likelihood A) this was not a unanimous decision--probably some Shammaite Pharisees and Sadducees disagreed; B) its immediate impact was limited by the fact that they were ruling on a power they didn't then have anyway, making it politically inconsequential; and C) Judaism had no central theological authority, then or now, so in principle a Jew could--and can--support the death penalty in good conscience provided that s/he trusts the court rendering the verdict to be "perfectly" just.

I attended a Catholic high school for a couple years, and as I recall one of my teachers there suggested that the 'writing on the ground' was probably a way of underlining the idea that everyone has wrongs they might be held to account for (and in those days, likely a few which could've landed them in far more trouble than today if caught!). Who knows, but it seemed a plausible enough idea to me.
 
yolland said:

Roman law certainly didn't forbid the death penalty. I'm guessing you meant 'in cases of adultery', though that's not fully correct either--Roman law from 18 BC on recognized the right of the aggrieved huband to kill his 'cuckolder'...just not his adulterous wife (of course under Mosaic law both could be executed, provided the limitations imposed on capital crimes trials by Jewish law were observed). Since only Roman authorities, not the Sanhedrin, held capital case jurisdiction in Roman Judaea, the likely "compromising situation" involved here is that Jesus would have violated those terms by rendering any "verdict" whatsoever on his own. Of course Jewish law wouldn't have permitted him to summarily declare a verdict on the spot, either, but presumably that wasn't per se what they were asking for--the conceit appears to be that they simply wanted him to 'rule' whether she could be executed if found guilty by trial or not, and technically either a direct "yes" or "no" could be considered a 'subversive' usurpation of capital-case jurisdiction on his part. Typically, he threw the responsibility for the decision back on them instead--in a way which insinuates without actually saying so that he recognizes an attempt to legally entrap him is afoot (potentially a capital crime in itself, under Jewish law).

Whether or not a "good Jew" at the time would have said (or thought) "yes" probably depended on who you were talking to. In the histories of the Sanhedrin presented in both the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmuds, it's stated that in 30 AD the Sanhedrin, under the influence of its Hillelite Pharisee members (i.e., disciples of former Sanhedrin head Hillel, who was dead by that time), ruled that in view of all the limitations imposed by Jewish law on capital crimes proceedings--and the presumed intent behind those limitations--capital punishment was best seen as a "hypothetical" maximum penalty, ultimately unfit for flawed human judicial systems to mete out. This was precisely the argument used long before to abrogate the Deuteronomic injunction to kill a rebellious son, and in view of this, subsequent Jewish tradition has tended to interpret the Sanhedrin decision as effectively nullifying religious justification of the death penalty, despite not condemning it in abstract principle. Of course in all likelihood A) this was not a unanimous decision--probably some Shammaite Pharisees and Sadducees disagreed; B) its immediate impact was limited by the fact that they were ruling on a power they didn't then have anyway, making it politically inconsequential; and C) Judaism had no central theological authority, then or now, so in principle a Jew could--and can--support the death penalty in good conscience provided that s/he trusts the court rendering the verdict to be "perfectly" just.

I attended a Catholic high school for a couple years, and as I recall one of my teachers there suggested that the 'writing on the ground' was probably a way of underlining the idea that everyone has wrongs they might be held to account for (and in those days, likely a few which could've landed them in far more trouble than today if caught!). Who knows, but it seemed a plausible enough idea to me.

Thanks!! I knew the Roman law didn't completely forbid the death penalty, but I wasn't sure what exactly the policy was. I knew they didn't feel the same way about it as most Jewish people did, so I erred on the side of being a little too general with my answer.
 
I think some ppl take sayings "judge not at all" literally and pervert the meaning.
I think what Jesus meant by this saying was have your own house clean before even considering casting judgement at all.

Some ppl pick and choose verses in the Bible and construct them for a meaning that suits their interests, or claim it's poetry or fables etc, for whatever reason they may have.



Clearly Christ judged ppl but very rarely condemn them.

I don't remember if he ever refused to condemn a murderer.

I do know what he said about children, "that they were such as heaven, to let them come unto him, and to *never* harm them".

dbs
 
Didn't Jesus say something along the lines of "Let he who is without sin be the first to cast a stone." Was that how the line went? I think it was.

That's not picking and choosing. That's a pretty solid statement right there.

And I don't think you would have considered the woman he defended in that innocent. Would you do the same thing that Jesus did, by the standards you are setting out now?
 
Jesus asked the woman where her accusers were, he told the woman caught in the act that he didn't condemn her, and to "go and sin no more".

He also exposed the ppl judging her as not being worthy to judge as I alluded to in my previous post.

He never said her adultrey was a good thing, actually it was sin and that she was to sin no more.

He wanted to also point out her accusers were far from sinless.

So your point is what?

dbs
 
My point is that because you are far from sinless, just like all of us, should you be allowed to judge innocence in these matters? Forget government judging. Can anyone on this earth judge or condemn?
 
(I apologize for being late into the discussion.)

Truly, I believe a life sentence in prison is a much better alternative to the death penalty. A woman a few years back named Karla Faye Tucker was executed by lethal injection. Though I was much younger, I can remember an uproar from the community stemming because the woman had accepted Christ while in prison, showed visible signs of complete reform, and died after making a statement about how she would join the Lord in Heaven. So this just adds to another argument. Should one who is showing complete signs of change be released from their death sentence?


Now for what is presently happening. diamond, I don't understand what side of the argument you are on. I cannot tell if you are for or against the death penalty, but the support you used in your last post seems to contribute to phillyfan's thesis. If we, just like the accusers (the Pharaises, in that example), are all sinful, then how can we place judgement on someone like the woman who committed adultry? Really, in reference to my story from above, this woman, just as the adultress would later, completely reformed herself, and yet still was executed. Is this fair? Adultry, like murder, is not a good thing and should be "sinned no more."



I truly hope I understood everyone's argument. I have a bit of a headache, so I apologize if anything I said was weird. :wink:
 
phillyfan26 said:
My point is that because you are far from sinless, just like all of us, should you be allowed to judge innocence in these matters? Forget government judging. Can anyone on this earth judge or condemn?

yes, otherwise we would be in complete chaos.

so yes we have to exercise judgement while not being hypocrites.
dbs
 
LikeNoOneBefore said:
(I apologize for being late into the discussion.)

Truly, I believe a life sentence in prison is a much better alternative to the death penalty. A woman a few years back named Karla Faye Tucker was executed by lethal injection. Though I was much younger, I can remember an uproar from the community stemming because the woman had accepted Christ while in prison, showed visible signs of complete reform, and died after making a statement about how she would join the Lord in Heaven. So this just adds to another argument. Should one who is showing complete signs of change be released from their death sentence?


Now for what is presently happening. diamond, I don't understand what side of the argument you are on. I cannot tell if you are for or against the death penalty, but the support you used in your last post seems to contribute to phillyfan's thesis. If we, just like the accusers (the Pharaises, in that example), are all sinful, then how can we place judgement on someone like the woman who committed adultry? Really, in reference to my story from above, this woman, just as the adultress would later, completely reformed herself, and yet still was executed. Is this fair? Adultry, like murder, is not a good thing and should be "sinned no more."



I truly hope I understood everyone's argument. I have a bit of a headache, so I apologize if anything I said was weird. :wink:

Yes, it was fair.

Ms Tucker completed her sentence and is better off in the after life-that she started her repentance process in this life.

If you begin to repent like Tookie did or the axe murderer Ms Tucker did, it is a good thing, your penalty doesn't become optional.

Mercy cannot rob Justice, but God will be more merciful to a repentant soul.


My belief is that one is much better in the sight of God if he goes out of this life repenting w a humble heart.

dbs
 
diamond said:


where is it in God's law 'not to punish muderers'?
I don't follow.

We're told to follow the laws of the land that we live in and if there are corrupt laws in the country you live in, those people who establish corrupt laws will be dealt with accordingly, in God's own time.

We as citizens of our indivual countries should do our best to make a difference legally.

dbs

Matthew 5:38-42. The death penalty only continues that cycle of violence. What ever happened to "We must not become a monster in order to defeat a monster"

Jesus taught COMPASSION and FORGIVENESS. He rejected violence, oppression, and alienation. Jesus forgives the murders for their sins. Why can't you? I think your ethic of the sanctity of human life is inconsistent. A life is a life is a life. Whatever you do to those prisoners, you do to Jesus. THAT is quite explicit.

Don't you think we are bigger than our greatest mistake?

p.s. legally Jesus didn't pay taxes.
 
He was executed last night

McALESTER, Okla. (AP) - A terminally ill Oklahoma death row inmate was executed today after his final appeal for a reprieve was denied by the US Supreme Court.

A corrections department spokesman says Jimmy Dale Bland died at 6:19 pm after he was injected with a lethal dose of chemicals at the Oklahoma State Penitentiary.

Bland was a twice-convicted killer who shot his 62-year-old employer in the back of the head eleven years ago. He's the second person executed by the state this year.

Bland's attorney had asked the US Supreme Court for the execution to be blocked because the 49-year-old was terminally ill with advanced lung cancer and doctors said he had as little as six months to live.

The nation's highest court rejected that request earlier today.
 
Still waiting...

diamond said:
i never will make the connection how anti death penalty ppl try and equate a innocent baby's life that made no choices, with a convicted murderer who made choices.
i do not think a muderer is a sacred human being, a new born baby is much more sacred of a being to most people, even you were at one time wanderer.

But this has no Biblical backing, just your own personal emotions...

diamond said:

Murder =taking innocent life, what part of that don't you understand?


Who's really innocent?
 
So that's it then. I wonder if those who wanted him executed so badly will ever realize what a hollow victory it was.

Growing up I was always pro-DP. I was a kid of course, and the pro-DP stance is easy (he murdered somebody, kill his *ss)...but as I grew older I came to a few conclusions.

Our legal system is incredibly subjective & biased. If person X commits a crime against person Y X's punishment will vary wildly depending on the class, race, or gender of X & Y, and I can't accept the DP as a sentence when whether it's used depends more on who the convict is than what he did.

I also don't think the DP has any place in a civilized society. I just can't see where an enlightened society allows government-sanctioned murder...and yes the DP is murder, whether you're for or against it that's what it is. Does anyone know what percentage of Western nations allow the DP and have it in common practice?

All that said I'm not sure I understand the outrage over this particular case. If you're anti-DP then condemn all executions; I truly don't get why this guy merited clemency based on his cancer. I definitely think killing him when he was already terminally ill was almost "childish", in a telling your boss "you can't fire me because I quit"kind of way, but honestly if anything isn't executing a young guy in perfect health MORE cruel?
 
Nowhere in Europe has the DP legal except Belarus, New Zealand and Australia don't have it, most of South America doesn't have it except I think Brazil (maybe others?) but that is for war time traitors only.
 
Last edited:
That's about what I figured...wasn't too sure about South America but I was pretty certain about Europe, NZ, and Australia. I'm thinking Canada doesn't have the DP either.
 
Nope it does not, most Asian countries still have it, Japan, China, India etc as do the African states.....these are the governments the US has to compare itself to on the use of the death penalty, many of them not the best of governments either.
 
LJT said:
Nope it does not, most Asian countries still have it, Japan, China, India etc as do the African states.....these are the governments the US has to compare itself to on the use of the death penalty, many of them not the best of governments either.



just one thing that often gets lost -- some states execute lots of people (Texas) whereas in other states it is illegal. the federal government doesn't execute citizens, state governments do.
 
unico said:


Matthew 5:38-42. The death penalty only continues that cycle of violence. What ever happened to "We must not become a monster in order to defeat a monster"

Jesus taught COMPASSION and FORGIVENESS. He rejected violence, oppression, and alienation. Jesus forgives the murders for their sins. Why can't you? I think your ethic of the sanctity of human life is inconsistent. A life is a life is a life. Whatever you do to those prisoners, you do to Jesus. THAT is quite explicit.

Don't you think we are bigger than our greatest mistake?

p.s. legally Jesus didn't pay taxes.

Matthew 5:38-42
"38 You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; 40 and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; 41 and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you."

Yes Christ did teach compassion and forgiveness paticularly to those that applied themselves to his teachings, and for those that didn't aceppt His teachings we are taught to pray for those that use us, or don't get it. (His teachings or sacrifice).


The scripture you cited doesn't say anything about not punishing murderers or blanket forgiveness, yet Christ will forgive whom He will forgive, that is up to Christ, but doesn't negate earthly punishment, nor the consequences of sin.

As a believer in Christ, I forgive all men for their sins and know that after this life God will forgive whom He will forgive through the merits of His Son's sacrifice (Christ's sacrifice), for those that applied themselves.

Matter of fact Christ taught repentance to many, and instructed His apostles to do the same.

I think your ethics and understanding of the purpose and sancity of human life may be different from mine, and that's ok, we see things differently is all.

Jesus told people to pay what is Ceaser's (earthly laws, taxes) to Ceaser and what is God's to God. (alms, charity, good works) to God.

dbs
 
The death penalty has no room in a polite, civilized society, in my opinion.

That said, this is not a good case for arguing it, because essentially you are saying, this man is old and he is suffering and therefore we should not impose the death penalty on him. That is beside the point; the argument should be that our legal system is fraught with imperfections and that a substantial enough number of DP cases have been discounted using new forensic evidence and other methods to indicate that innocent people have been executed by the state. The fact this man had cancer and was frail is really immaterial in the end: if you are anti-death penalty, then the argument applies equally to him and a perfectly healthy, young man on death row.
 
Irvine511 said:




just one thing that often gets lost -- some states execute lots of people (Texas) whereas in other states it is illegal. the federal government doesn't execute citizens, state governments do.

I know, it is just easier than listing every states...how many states is it legal in though? Most of the time America doesn't even appear as one country to me...I see very little of what actually holds the states together, and they act so independently of each other.
 
LJT said:


I know, it is just easier than listing every states...how many states is it legal in though? Most of the time America doesn't even appear as one country to me...I see very little of what actually holds the states together, and they act so independently of each other.

My home state (Connecticut) has the DP on the books but hasn't actually used it in I don't know how long. I think there's even a death row in CT prisons but in reality it's more like some sick purgatory than an actual death row. Now how's that for cruel & unusual...yeah you'll probably never actually get the DP but we'll leave you to rot on death row with it hanging over your head for 20 years.

I've since moved to Florida, which unlike CT kills lots of people :(

While it's true the US government doesn't execute, it does of course have the power to outlaw the DP...yet it chooses not to. So I think it's fair to make the statement "the US has the DP", but it's also fair for folk in no-DP states to point out that fact...kind of like saying "don't blame me, I'm from a blue state".
 
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