Ted Haggard -- still not straight (should he just pray harder?)

[financeguy]

Originally posted by Irvine511
we know FOR A FACT that sexual orientation is innate and immutable.

Hmmmm

[indra]

Originally posted by joyfulgirl
I guess I don't feel all that sorry for him (his family, yes. Him, no). As President of the National Association of Evangelicals (representing 30 million conservative Christians), he and other evangelical leaders pressured Bush aggressively for years for a federal marriage amendment (just for starters) while having sex with men. There are a lot of young men under his influence I feel a lot sorrier for. He did this to himself. He said he was conflicted his whole life. Yet he continued to exert damaging influence over a lot of truly innocent young men.

I do feel more for his family -- it's devastating to feel (know?) a big part of your life is a lie through no fault of your own and just part of someone's cover -- but I can't help but feel for him also. I cannot believe anyone who's homosexual could be so very publicly homophobic without absolutely loathing himself and I can't help but feel for someone who's spent the vast majority of his life consumed by that much self hatred. No matter how wealthy or powerful he is/was how horrible must it be to hate yourself that much.

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by financeguy



Hmmmm

ok, fine. so maybe there is one bisexual man out there ...

[martha]

Originally posted by Irvine511
ok, fine. so maybe there is one bisexual man out there ...

Which completely disproves everything anyone's ever written about gayness being unconquerable.



(See what I mean by fear?)

[unico]

what about the meth addiction? or is his penis addiction more important to "resolve"?

[melon]

Originally posted by financeguy
Hmmmm

There's only two words I have for you:

Kinsey Scale

[financeguy]

Originally posted by melon


There's only two words I have for you:

Kinsey Scale

Well yes of course, but Robinson spent the early part of his musical career insisting he was definitely, definitely, definitely gay and there was nothing he or anyone else could do about it, but then, lo and behold, fast forward to a few years later and he's getting married (to a woman) and questioning his earlier assumptions.

So Robinson's story, and those of plenty of others I am sure, challenges the idea of immutability that Irvine was talking about.

Having said all that, we can agree that conservative Christian ideas of 'curing' gays are offensive nonsense.

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by financeguy


Well yes of course, but Robinson spent the early part of his musical career insisting he was definitely, definitely, definitely gay and there was nothing he or anyone else could do about it, but then, lo and behold, fast forward to a few years later and he's getting married (to a woman) and questioning his earlier assumptions.

i wonder why someone who made millions off of being gay kept going around insisting just how gay he was.

So Robinson's story, and those of plenty of others I am sure, challenges the idea of immutability that Irvine was talking about.

i think you've misconstrued what i meant by immutability. i mean that it is not behavior that is learned. i cannot learn to be straight no more than you can learn to be gay. it seems as if Robinson might have been genuinely bisexual, but made a pile of cash on being gay, so he kept at it.

and, ultimately, sexual orientation isn't something that's entirely black or white for everybody. it's simply the same for everybody -- it's inborn, innate, and involuntary.

[diamond]

Originally posted by melon


There's only two words I have for you:

Kinsey Scale

2 words back:
Judith Reisman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Reisman
http://www.drjudithreisman.org/about_dr_reisman.html

dbs

[AttnKleinkind]

Originally posted by Irvine511

maybe Ted met someone who was also being heterosexualized.

Didn't the two male leaders of Exodus hook up? I remember hearing about that a while ago.

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by AttnKleinkind


Didn't the two male leaders of Exodus hook up? I remember hearing about that a while ago.

it does tend to happen quite a bit.

[Irvine511]

Originally posted by diamond


2 words back:
Judith Reisman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Reisman
http://www.drjudithreisman.org/about_dr_reisman.html

dbs

wow. she's made a career accusing Kinsey of being a pedophile, when there's no hard evidence to support he claim.

what on earth does this have to do with the immutability of sexual orientation?

[Headache in a Suitcase]

[melon]

Originally posted by diamond
2 words back:
Judith Reisman.

Judith...who?

That's right. Just because some random conservative writes a book, it doesn't mean that it carries any credence to it.

That goes for all the creationists/IDers out there too. We have Kinsey, a scientist, in contrast to Reisman, who is nobody at all.

[melon]

Originally posted by Irvine511
what on earth does this have to do with the immutability of sexual orientation?

Nothing. But we all know what diamond thinks of sexuality by now.

[yolland]

Originally posted by Vincent Vega
What a waste.

[yolland]

Originally posted by martha
Just plain fear of the different.

And of having to reimagine, and ask others to reimagine, what love, intimacy, commitment, and families might look like. Reinforced by fear that you (too) might be rejected by people you've invested a lot of your identity in building a community with, should you call for that. And probably also a cynical assumption that you'll lose the "strayers" anyway if you acknowledge they've been wronged, so why not contain the damage by pinning it on them instead.

Not that there's really much to reimagine when it comes right down to it but...

[diamond]

Originally posted by melon


Judith...who?

That's right. Just because some random conservative writes a book, it doesn't mean that it carries any credence to it.

.

To arbitrarily dimiss Dr. Reisman as a "random conservative" makes you sound as bigoted as the ppl you claim are bigots.

She has quite an extensive repitroire and is highly educated.:

Summary
Dr. Judith Reisman is sought worldwide to speak, lecture, testify, and counsel individuals, organizations, professionals and governments regarding a) fraudulent sex science, sex education and b) the power and effect of images and the monopoly media to alter human brain, mind, memory and conduct. The special emphasis of her work has been and continues to be the negative influence of these change agents upon children and society.

Dr. Reisman is president of The Institute for Media Education, author of the U.S. Department of Justice, Juvenile Justice study, Images of Children, Crime and Violence in Playboy, Penthouse and Hustler (1989), Kinsey, Sex and Fraud (Reisman, et al., 1990) and Soft Porn Plays Hardball (1991), Partner Solicitation Language as a Reflection of Male Sexual Orientation (w/Johnson, 1995), and Kinsey, Crimes & Consequences (1998, 2000) and is a news commentator for WorldNetDaily.com. She has been a consultant to four U.S. Department of Justice administrations, The U.S. Department of Education, as well as the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Dr. Reisman is listed in numerous Who's Who biographies such as: Who's Who in Science & Engineering, International Who's Who in Sexology, International Who's Who in Education, Who's Who of American Women and The World's Who's Who of Women. Her scholarly findings have had international legislative and scientific import in the United States, Israel, South Africa, Canada and Australia, while The German Medical Tribune and the British medical journal, The Lancet demanded that the Kinsey Institute be investigated, saying:

The Kinsey reports (one in 1948 on males and the companion five years later) claimed that sexual activity began much earlier in life.... and displayed less horror of age differences and same-sex relationships than anyone at the time imagined. It was as if, to follow Mr. Porter again, "Anything goes". In Kinsey, Sex and Fraud, Dr. Judith A. Reisman and her colleagues demolish the foundations of the two reports ... Kinsey et al ... questioned an unrepresentative proportion of prison inmates and sex offenders in a survey of "normal" sexual behavior. Presumably some at least of those offenders were also the sources of information on stimulation to orgasm in young children that can only have come from pedophiles--or so it must be hoped. Kinsey.... has left his former co-workers some explaining to do. The Lancet, (Vol. 337: March 2, 1991, p. 547).
Tim Tate, UNESCO and Amnesty International Award-winning Producer-Director of "Kinsey's Paedophiles," Yorkshire Television, Great Britain, 1998: "In the course of producing my documentary-Kinsey's Paedophiles—it became clear that every substantive allegation Reisman made was not only true but thoroughly sourced with documentary evidence—despite the Kinsey Institute's reluctance to open its files."


Worldwide Courts and Legislatures Presence
A Presence and an Influence in Worldwide Courts and Legislatures Professional Advisor: California Judicial Investigative Task Force
INTERNATIONALLY
SOUTH AFRICA, October 2003: The South African Constitutional Court relied upon Dr. Reisman's research on the impact of pornography on brain, mind, memory in its decision to halt legal leeway for the distribution of child pornography in South Africa.

SOUTH AFRICA, 1995: The Office of the Attorney General thanks Dr. Reisman for "your knowledge and your expertise.... your assistance in saving this nation from a potential disaster.... we have achieved a major victory on the pornography front.... which would not have been possible without the aid of your expert knowledge, books, videos and articles."Dr. Reisman's testimony on the ways graphic, antisocial imagery reconfigures brain, mind and memory helped pass The Film and Publications Bill of 1995, by an overwhelming majority of 300 votes, prohibiting child pornography in any form (written, visual, cartoon, "artistic" or pseudo), and prohibiting current types of "adult" pornography

AUSTRALIA, Parliament 1994 and 1992: Following her April 6, 1992 invited testimony and report on pornography and the harm factor to the Senate Select Committee on Community Standards, Parliament banned "X" Rated materials from pay cable TV, while her March 1994 research paper aided Parliament's decision, based on harm, to similarly ban "R" Rated materials from pay cable TV.

CANADA, Supreme Court 1992: Dr. Reisman provided briefing materials on pornography and harm, aiding the Canadian Supreme Court's unanimous decision February 27, 1992 to ban all pornography as "obscene" as it undermines equality by degrading, subjugating and dehumanizing women.Subsequently, in 1993, Dr. Reisman was tasked by the Ontario Human Rights Commission to produce a research paper, "Pornography in Neighborhood Convenience Stores: Neurochemical Effects on Women," for a pornography case challenging the new law--results pending

NEW ZEALAND, Tribunal 1991 and 1989: Dr. Reisman's research was delivered by-proxy via Dr. John Court to the New Zealand Pornography Commission investigations in 1989.She was again asked for, and delivered, written testimony to the New Zealand Indecency Tribunal in 1991

ISRAEL, Knesset 1982: Dr. Reisman founded a media monitoring, non-profit foundation in Israel, funded by private and public sources that have presented findings on Israeli media to the Knesset and throughout Israel.At minimum, major corrections and improvements were made in controlling advertisements, largely due to Dr. Reisman's data collection, cadre training, and public dissemination of information.

THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT
MASSACHUSETTS, 1989: Oakes v. Massachusetts. Massachusetts Attorney General, James Shannon cited Dr. Reisman's DoJ, Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention study in this successful brief and in oral appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. Shannon wrote (1/8/90):

I contacted Dr. Reisman in connection with an important child pornography case, Massachusetts v. Oakes…that I argued in the United States Supreme Court in January 1989…I had to convince the court that both nude and sexually explicit photographs of children were exploitive and harmful.To make the point, I quoted Dr. Reisman's study, "Images of Children, Crime and Violence in Playboy, Penthouse, and Hustler Magazines," in which she showed that sexually exploitive photographs of children condone and promote a distorted view of sexuality, often by pairing...sexuality and violence, or depicting children as desiring sexual activity with adults.
US Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation
The Science Behind Pornography Addiction - November 18, 2004Science, Technology, and Space HearingThursday, November 18 2004
Description: Testimony examining brain science related to pornography addiction and the effects of such addiction on families and communities.

OHIO, 1989: Osborne v. Ohio.Amici cited "Neurochemical Evidence Shows That People React Differently To Pictures Than They Do To Words Raising New First Amendment Considerations" and thanks "Dr. Judith Reisman for her valuable development of this concept" (:23) and, "J.Reisman's New York Review of Law and Social Change," (1979) where she addressed media, science and civil rights.

On behalf of the Amici in Osborne v. Ohio.... thanks for your invaluable assistance rendered to us in researching and writing this brief.Your ideas on how the visual images effect people substantially more than the written word is indeed a new concept and could have many significant ramifications in the area of the First Amendment.If in fact the court and legislatures do believe that visual images, specifically of sexual, sexually violent and violent material, will have a greater impact on people in general and children in particular, there may be justification for more strict legislation in these areas than would apply to the written material.Moreover, under a First Amendment analysis, since the harm is greater, there would be more of a compelling state interest to have stricter laws. (H. Robert Showers, 10/12/89).
USA LOWER COURTS
Crawford v. Lungren, 1996: The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit upheld the right of California's news rack laws to protect minors in support of Amici arguments by the National Law Center for Children and Families.Amici cited to Reisman's Canadian paper,"Pornography in Neighborhood Convenience Stores: Neurochemical Effects on Women," that "Images reach the brain more quickly than print" (:15).

Steffan v. Perry, 1994 and 1991: The U.S. States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit.The lower court in 1991, under Judge Oliver Gash, cited Reisman's book in rejecting Steffan's appeal.Upon challenge in 1994, Colonel Ronald Ray Esq., Ret., and Reisman filed an Amicus brief on behalf of the Naval Aviation Foundation in support of the Department of Defense ruling, that homosexuality and sexual conduct cannot be separated.General P.X. Kelley, former member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Commandant of The Marine Corps, wrote of Reisman's "groundbreaking work in Kinsey, Sex & Fraud," (October 5, 1994) in recommending she and Colonel Ray enter the Steffan case.

United States v. Knox, 1994: The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third District, ruled in support of arguments presented in the Institute for Media Education Amicus and Arnold & Porter written with Colonel Ron Ray and Randall Shaheen, citing Reisman's research on images and for OJJDP, to protect children from use in child pornography.

TEXAS, 1993espite obstructions, the Court's successful use of Dr. Reisman's findings continues.A Texas prosecutor wrote the following:

As a prosecuting attorney, I have tried approximately 35 obscenity jury trials in which the defense has called a sociologist as an expert witness on community standards.Your book, Kinsey, Sex and Fraud, has proven invaluable on cross-examination.This sociologist studied at the Kinsey Institute and bases a lot of expert opinions on his studies at that institute.To be able to point out to the jury the fraud that Alfred Kinsey and his institute have perpetrated is a very effective tool…I encourage you to continue your work in this area to point out to the public the frauds sociology and psychology have given us (March 8, 1993).
OHIO, 1991:State of Ohio v. Contemporary Arts Center, (Mapplethorpe trial): The presiding judge rules in agreement with Dr. Reisman's expert testimony re: what was Mapplethorpe's artistic "whole" to be viewed by the jury.Frank Prouty, the State prosecutor writes: As you know, the State filed a Motion in Limine regarding what constituted the "whole" as that issue related to the Mapplethorpe exhibit.Your testimony was critical to the Motion, and your testimony ensured a favorable ruling for the State…The issues and interpretation you presented concerning the child photographs and the remaining photographs substantiated the prosecution's view…The perspective you established was both concise and persuasive, and should be considered in any interpretation of pornography and its affect in both children and adults (March 4, 1991).

CALIFORNIA, 1989: Ventura County Superior Court cites Reisman's research to convict child pornography Hustler cartoonist, Dwaine Tinsley. Mr. Hardy indicated that your report [Dr. Reisman's "Images of Children, Crime and Violence"] was extremely helpful throughout the prosecution of the Tinsley case.Mr. Hardy used the report as a reference source for putting together his closing arguments, and for his cross examination…Mr. Hardy considers your report to be a great piece of work, and has recommended the report…to the National Association of District Attorneys…your report…was a great help in the prosecution of this case (March 28, 1989).

Dr. Reisman has been successfully consulted on sexual harassment in the Minnesota workplace; on a mother's rights to child custody from an AIDS father in Kentucky; in testimony before the Attorney General's Commission on pornography; on homosexual versus parents rights in a Connecticut classroom on fraudulent sex education in Falmouth schools. She is currently consultant for a first amendment versus parental rights case involving one government school, in a second school versus parents' case involving subversion of parents to provide contraception to minors and a third case involving sexual harassment in the workplace.

LEGISLATION
WASHINGTON, D.C., December 1995: HR 2749, The Child Protection and Ethics in Education Act, is introduced.A Bill to determine if Alfred Kinsey's Sexual Behavior in the Human Male and/or Sexual Behavior in the Human Female are the result of any fraud or criminal wrongdoing: 41 co-sponsors; carried over to 1997-1998 legislature to investigate the Kinsey data.This Bill is the culmination of Dr. Reisman's 20-years of research and advocacy for children.A Senate hearing waits in the wings.

MINNESOTA, 1993: After a last-minute briefing and presentation of pedophile exhibits by Dr. Reisman to Minnesota legislators, "affectional orientation" language, which allows children to be in legal sexual relationships with adults, is removed from two pending Minnesota laws.

GEORGIA, 1992: Heeding Dr. Reisman's exhibits and expert testimony on February 13, 1992, the State of Georgia House Education Subcommittee terminates Georgia's then mandated sex education curriculum due to its false, Kinseyan database.The educator who organized the legislative event credits Reisman's data, additionally, with the overwhelming legislative defeat of the homosexual/sex education lobby, by a house vote of 150-1 and a Senate vote of 48-6.The legislature prohibits teaching youths illegal behavior such as sodomy, adultery, and fornication.(C. Weatherly, Education Analysis & Research Systems, June 11, 1992).

WASHINGTON, D.C., 1991: Congressman William E. Danneymeyer cites Dr. Reisman's Kinsey fraud findings in a floor debate, which helped sway cancellation of a proposed $18 million dollar teen-sex survey (TIME, August 5, 1991: 27), viewed by the national sex-education monopoly as a major defeat in their efforts to modify American youth.

VIRGINIA, 1986: Dr. Peter Anderson wrote:"The City Council voted 7-0 in favor of banning topless dancing … due to Dr. Reisman's knowledge of the material and her ability to present it in such a clear and concise manner.I encourage anyone to have Dr. Reisman address either their citizens or community leaders if they need help in fighting pornography in the local community". (June 1986).

MICHIGAN, circa 1980: Testimony to the Michigan State Senate Juvenile Justice Corrections, to aid decision-making on pornography harms.

MISCELLANEOUS USA
ILLINOIS, 1994: As an expert on "Cultural Diversity," Dr. Reisman's presentation of evidence, citing to the use of Kinsey's findings in the planned curriculum, successfully aided parents in eliminating a $600,000 mandated Diversity program in Springfield, Illinois schools.

MISCELLANEOUS
MISSOURI, 1988: Missouri Department of Corrections. A Corrections psychologist writes that a group formed to study eliminating Playboy, Penthouse, and Hustler, and all other pornography from the prison system. A call to Missouri corrections finds all pornography but Playboy banned. "Two males within the administrative structure, who reportedly saw no problem with pornography within our system, were greatly swayed in favor of its removal once they read your report…[One] often attempted to sway policy toward allowing pornography to pacify inmates. He now is a member of our committee to halt and ban incoming pornography. Yours was the only report he read." (10/26/88)

COVER STORY IN The National Review, MAY 19, 1997 "Mortal Sins": "The sexual revolution was based on a lie. Judith Reisman has spent thirty years uncovering the truth," by Tom Bethell [and] featured in the Reader's Digest, (4/97), "Sex, Lies and the Kinsey Report."

[phillyfan26]

Doesn't add any substance to your argument (mostly because there is none and never will be).

[phillyfan26]

About 90% of what you copied and pasted there is about her work on pornography. How does that have anything at all to do with her relevance and/or "expertise" in the topic of discussion?