Student entitlement?

[trevster2k]

I was listening to an interview with James E. Cote who has written a book Ivory Tower Blues: A University System in Crisis.

http://www.cbc.ca/thesundayedition/audio.html

March 11th link

I found many of his insights to be disturbing. He claims that university degrees have become merely a work permit in Canada. According to him, most university graduates don't work in fields directly associated with their degree. And end up working in jobs which don't require that particular level of education.

He mentions the concept of social promotion/passing in schools where kids are promoted despite lacking skills in literacy or math. How teachers can't fail students anymore and must inform the principal who then talks to the parents. He calls this the progressive dropping of standards.

He comments on the teacher rating system and its' effects on the teachers, especially their job security or salary. So some professors in an attempt to receive higher ratings end up making their courses easier, and basically pleasing the students.

He mentioned a lawsuit where a teacher was fired for failing to follow a school policy of awarding marks using a 75% effort, 25% merit policy.

Is this what is happening in school these days? Do students have a sense of entitlement do higher marks for mediocre work? I have seen surveys which reveal huge amounts of cheating in academia too. I have been out of school for 15 years and plan to return this fall again.

I know there are many teachers and students here and would appreciate any insights. The interview link summarizes his thoughts far better than I but I hope he is wrong in his conclusions.

 

[BonoIsMyMuse]

I'm finishing up a graduate program in English this semester, and I've been teaching undergrads for the last six years while in MA and PhD programs at state universities in two different states. There's a large problem with grade inflation in universities, in large part because of student attitudes. Some students think merely satisfactorily completing work for a class means they should get an A. They don't buy into the argument that everyone getting an A cheapens the value of that grade. A C has suddenly become a bad grade, even though a C once stood for satisfactory work.

Many of the students with this attitude are bright students who have scholarships. They didn't have to work hard in high school to get good grades, so they believe they won't have to in college. I like to think I've humbled a lot of students, because I don't hand out A's like Halloween candy. I'm fair, and I often give out quite a few good grades during a class, but I don't let a student pressure me. I teach writing, and because I grade students both on content and on how well they've revised, I do take into consideration a student's effort, but I reserve A and A- grades for only the very best work.

This is certainly not the case with all students. I've had many students who worked hard and genuinely wanted to learn, and I always appreciated their hard work. As you head back to school, though, you're probably going to encounter a fair number of "grade grubbers"--students who just want the good grade and could care less what else they get out of the class. They're terribly frustrating, and the fact that many professors grade on huge curves or dumb down their classes to help students who aren't working hard makes the situation even worse. I definitely don't think classes should be impossibly hard, but if there isn't some degree of challenge, most students aren't really going to learn anything.

 

[trevster2k]

^Sounds like you understand where the author is coming from.

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that not ALL students would expect this treatment but in the long run, this will probably have negative consequences upon our society if not already.

 

[anitram]

The problem is that an undergraduate degree is completely watered down and essentially worthless except in very select circumstances (like undergrads in nursing, engineering, teaching). Your regular BA in English or BSc in Biology are worth about as much as a piece of toilet paper in terms of your employment prospects. There are too many universities, particularly shitty ones who will admit anyone willing to pay. To some extent, this is controlled for in countries where private institutions are not allowed. For example, in the US you have something like 200 law schools, about 100+ of which I would probably not pay $ to attend because their quality is below that which I find acceptable. I really don't understand the logic or reasoning of thousands of private institutions pumping out people with degrees who really should not be graduating with a BA. It's as if we've reached this point in society where it's offensive to suggest that somebody just may not have academic predispositions.

So then what happens is that kids go to university and go insane over grades and things since their BA is worthless and they will have to pursue grad school or professional school if they really want decent job security and better pay someday. And with that comes the entitlement of "I'm paying ___ dollars, you bet your ass I'm not going to accept a C."

The main issue in my eyes is that too many people are graduating with undergraduate degrees. University has become some kind of social project for people to go hang out at for 4 years, regardless of whether they have an interest or not, but because the society expects it. I can't really blame the students here because our job market is such that you better have multiple letters after your name. Our parents and people their age may have gotten away with a high school or community college degree. My best friend's dad is an exec at IBM who never finished his BA. He says these days, they wouldn't even look at his resume. Times have changed.

 

[Liesje]

I really don't understand the logic or reasoning of thousands of private institutions pumping out people with degrees who really should not be graduating with a BA.

Maybe it's different in Canada, but around here it's well known that the private colleges in the area are far more challenging than public ones. You can expect to work at least twice as hard. Even being in class is tough, since class sizes are generally no more than 30:1 (I was in a few with 12 people) and most are "seminar" meaning you're not just sitting there taking notes, you have to participate in discussion and presentation for actual points. You can get As on all papers and exams and still fail the class if you skip enough times. That's not to say the degree is worth more than someone else's, but if anyone's just passing people along it's NOT the private schools.

Personally, I think it's like a lose-lose situation, pretty much a vicious cycle. If you don't have a BA, no one's going to consider you for even stupid jobs. If you do have a BA, it's really not that big of a deal anyway.

The one thing I really do appreciate about college is the opportunity to travel and/or get hands-on practical experience. Maybe this is not true elsewhere, but at my school you can pretty much study with a sister program anywhere in the world or get any kind of internship you want (as long as you deserve it). You're basically required to study abroad since you cannot graduate without CCE (cross cultural engagement) credits (western Europe doesn't always count either). If I had done the same study I did in Tanzania on my own, it never would have worked. It would have cost three times as much and I never would have been able to meet the people we met because of the connections our professor has there. I wish the school would take emphasis off on the "liberal arts" thing and place even more emphasis on field placements, internships, and studying abroad.

As for the original article, I do see the sense of entitlement where grades are concerned, but again, there's that catch 22 because scholarships have become so competitive. Not 30 years ago, my mom got a full ride academic scholarship from her 3.4 high school GPA. These days, a 3.4 is mediocre in terms of what scholarships are available and what percentage of tuition they would cost.

 

[anitram]

That's not to say the degree is worth more than someone else's, but if anyone's just passing people along it's NOT the private schools.

I totally disagree. There are obviously excellent private institutions (not just the Ivy League either). But the worst institutions in the US are private universities which are funded by high tuition and barely accredited. They are admitting a lot of the spillover because their admission standards are considerably lower. If you can pay, you can attend. That is not how higher education should be, and it's sad it's come to this. Take a look at the law schools in your bottom 100, some of them aren't accredited, some are religious freak shows, some have such ridiculously low standards that it's scary. It's a well known strategy in Canada that if you can't get into law school or grad school or teacher's college or MBA or optometry or dentistry or ____ (fill in the blank) all you need is head south of the border, pay your fee and SOME school will be able to take you. Everyone who I know who failed to get into one of these schools in Canada got in somewhere in the US. Not saying they went to a good private institution, but they went to some crappy school, shelled over an enormous amount of money and got a degree they couldn't have gotten here because of their qualifications.

Because bottom line is, we don't have private universities and so we have far fewer spots per capita than you do.

 

[ntalwar]

I found many of his insights to be disturbing. He claims that university degrees have become merely a work permit in Canada. According to him, most university graduates don't work in fields directly associated with their degree. And end up working in jobs which don't require that particular level of education.

He mentions the concept of social promotion/passing in schools where kids are promoted despite lacking skills in literacy or math. How teachers can't fail students anymore and must inform the principal who then talks to the parents. He calls this the progressive dropping of standards.

I'm too lazy to read the article now
Regarding not working in the degree field, the workplace/job market does not reflect students' collective majors. Too few study technical fields for example, so there's bound to be an imbalance. I guess grade inflation can lead to the illusion of students being overqualified for jobs or grad schools. But eventually a student entering a job or grad school will be judged by other standards, and the grades will mean less as time goes by.

 

[Liesje]

Sure they are easier to get into - they don't even HAVE competition to get in - but that doesn't mean you will stay in very long or not get kicked out! I know more people who've been on academic probation than I know who've received academic scholarships. Also, you cannot count any credits toward a major you received lower than a B+ in anyway. So yeah, you can get in and be a shitty student, but you will either not get accepted into the major program in the first place (it's not a free for all where you can choose any major and that's it, you're good to go) or not get that degree because you don't make the cut academically.

I don't think in general private schools are better, but I don't think they are generally worse.

What you get out of college is really what YOU make of it. If you slack and waste time just for the social experience, you might get a degree, but like we've been saying, that doesn't mean anything anymore, so who cares? If you never put out the effort to join extra clubs, take on internships and field placements, etc., you won't have any practical experience and you won't get picked for jobs.

I think we agree that the degree itself doesn't mean much these days. If that's true in general, then it's not even worth holding against some private schools. Compare their career development and field placement programs instead. Those are really the key to getting ahead of the competition, IMO.

 

[anitram]

I think we agree that the degree itself doesn't mean much these days. If that's true in general, then it's not even worth holding against some private schools.

But to me that's exactly part of the problem. The degree doesn't mean much because it's watered down and a greater proportion of the population is getting degrees that are worthless. A CDO can only do so much - when you flood the marketplace with hundreds of thousands of BAs, of course they can't all be accomodated. A BA used to mean something 40 years ago. Today, almost anyone can get one and tons of people do. Then you have the problem of entering a workplace with an expensive BA, tens of thousands of dollars in loans and you're working for a $30K/year job as an admin assistant? That's ridiculous. You do not need a degree for that job, but because everyone and their brother has a degree these days, suddenly it's become a requirement of employment.

I'm fully supportive of universities making significant cuts in the number of available spots for students. Take 25% of the lowest ranked students out, and the top 75% would have a better chance of getting jobs in their fields and better jobs than bottom of the totem pole. Now, the bottom 50% ends up doing some unrelated crap.

Post-secondary education should not be seen as entitlement in my eyes. It's total insanity out there now.

 

[ntalwar]

Then you have the problem of entering a workplace with an expensive BA, tens of thousands of dollars in loans and you're working for a $30K/year job as an admin assistant? That's ridiculous. You do not need a degree for that job, but because everyone and their brother has a degree these days, suddenly it's become a requirement of employment.

The admin assistants where I work don't have degrees, I believe. I wonder why a 2-year degree (max) would not suffice for those types of positions.

 

[Liesje]

Yep, I agree, but I don't think that private colleges are really a significant factor since 1) the amount of students going there is almost marginal compared to the populations of large universities (many private colleges have less people than my high school) and 2) it's not true that just because it's easy to get in, you will get your BA without being cut from the program or put on probation because you are doing poorly.

On this side of the state, if you go to one of the private schools and are struggling, it's very common to go to the state school and get "easy As" for some of the classes in order to keep up. It happens all the time for foreign language classes and science classes with labs. The schools try to limit the amount of credits you can transfer and no longer accept grades to be transfered, but it still happens. Most people I know took at least one course at an easier school. I think that's ridiculous. Why go to one school if you have to go part time to another because you really can't keep up at your own school? To me having to go back and forth would just complicate things and add more stress, but whatever.

But then I suppose the alternative is no better - dropping out to work, not being able to find a job without a degree. Chicken, or egg?

 

[Liesje]

The admin assistants where I work don't have degrees, I believe. I wonder why a 2-year degree (max) would not suffice for those types of positions.

Depends on what you're the assistant for. Some admin assistants are basically the brains AND brawn behind the entire operation. If you're an admin assistant for a foreign language department, you have to speak that language so unless you are a native, you'd have to have majored in that language in order to be fluent enough for that job. The admin assistants in our Development office are insanely qualified and paid accordingly. They rule the school. Same for the president's posse. I could not fathom doing their jobs and I have a college degree!

For other ones, I've seen many, many postings that only require a high school diploma, but they generally all require a few year's experience. There are plenty of these out there. I guess maybe the reason that so many are over qualified is say you are interviewing two people, one has a 4 year degree and the other is a 17 year old who just finished high school. You don't NEED the degree, but why not?

 

[randhail]

A BA today is the equivalent of a high school diploma 30 years ago, there is no denying that. I can only speak for the science field, but my BS allowed me to be a lab tech or research associate with minimal room for promotion without having an advanced degree.

Part of the blame has to be put on our culture and parenting styles. Nowadays, everyone is told how special we are, how many great gifts we have. We coddle our kids so much and we feed the illusion that every kid can go to college and become a CEO. It's not reality - college really isn't for everyone. A bell curve of life does exist. Not everyone can be at the top of the curve, but we sell the lie that a degree from some d-list college can make all the difference in the world - which I think hurts all of society.

 

[Irvine511]

some are religious freak shows,

but such a degree will get you a job in the Gonzales Justice Department.

 

[redkat]

A BA today is the equivalent of a high school diploma 30 years ago, there is no denying that. I can only speak for the science field, but my BS allowed me to be a lab tech or research associate with minimal room for promotion without having an advanced degree.

Part of the blame has to be put on our culture and parenting styles. Nowadays, everyone is told how special we are, how many great gifts we have. We coddle our kids so much and we feed the illusion that every kid can go to college and become a CEO. It's not reality - college really isn't for everyone. A bell curve of life does exist. Not everyone can be at the top of the curve, but we sell the lie that a degree from some d-list college can make all the difference in the world - which I think hurts all of society.

It's so depressing how little a bachelors is worth

With the shrinking of the middle class, though that BA isn't worth much it's better than nothing. There are plenty of smart people in the world who never got advanced degrees and contributed to society. It is sad that now to have any hope of a good job you've got to fit into the college model. To have a comfortable lifestyle you've got to spend a good eight years in school.

I think we overpay those with the most schooling and shortchange ourselves by not compensating people enough for doing other essential work. These things lead us to encourage EVERYONE to get a degree.

 

[anitram]

I think we overpay those with the most schooling and shortchange ourselves by not compensating people enough for doing other essential work. These things lead us to encourage EVERYONE to get a degree.

But you know, that's not even necessarily true. PhDs, for example are by and large not well compensated. The rate of success for a PhD in biological sciences to be put on tenure track (ie have their own lab) is somewhere around 2%, believe it or not. The other 98% will work in industry (mostly big pharma or biotech), or as research associates or highly qualified techs or will do peer-reviewed editing for scientific journals. And here we're talking about people who did a 4 year BS + a PhD of about 5-7 years (no pay except grad stipend) + on average 3 years of postdoc (paid ridiculously little, no better than techs). So you're talking about 12-14 years postsecondary education for little compensation.

The only people who are getting compensated really well are those who do a professional program after their undergrad. Everyone else....spending a lot of money for questionable benefits. Tuition is just absurd.

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

It's so depressing how little a bachelors is worth

With the shrinking of the middle class, though that BA isn't worth much it's better than nothing. There are plenty of smart people in the world who never got advanced degrees and contributed to society. It is sad that now to have any hope of a good job you've got to fit into the college model. To have a comfortable lifestyle you've got to spend a good eight years in school.

I think we overpay those with the most schooling and shortchange ourselves by not compensating people enough for doing other essential work. These things lead us to encourage EVERYONE to get a degree.

I just started back in school after being out for ten years. Reading this makes me feel like it's all going to be a waste of time.

 

[Liesje]

Nah, you're doing paralegal, right? Those kinds of programs seem better because they are more specific. Compare that with someone who just has a degree in "biology", in a very general sense. What would you do with a degree in biology?

 

[LarryMullen's POPAngel]

Nah, you're doing paralegal, right? Those kinds of programs seem better because they are more specific. Compare that with someone who just has a degree in "biology", in a very general sense. What would you do with a degree in biology?

Yep, the main reason why I chose that program is because you can essentially get a job anywhere with that degree.

Ok, I feel better now than I did after reading through this thread the first time, lol.

 

[Liesje]

I think you are doing it the way more people SHOULD be doing it. You went back once you figured out what it is you want and now you're in a specific program that is very practical in terms of being trained for an actual job and there being a demand for these kinds of people.

Phil keeps saying "I never should have gone to college just because my mom pushed me too." He's got a B.S. that's basically BS to him because he didn't get into the program he wanted and the degree is in a field where most of the employees are short term or volunteers. Now he's studying for what he REALLY wanted all along and what will guarantee him a job, being a younger man in special ed with a K-5th teaching certificate.

 

[BonoIsMyMuse]

But you know, that's not even necessarily true. PhDs, for example are by and large not well compensated.

The academic job market is so oversaturated right now that only a miserably small percentage of graduates land teaching jobs their first year out.

I'm graduating next month with a PhD in English. I've been on the job market since October, and even though I've stopped counting, I know I've applied for at least 60 teaching jobs, everything ranging from one-year visiting positions to community colleges to small and medium-sized four-year schools. I had one preliminary interview in December, but I've had absolutely nothing beyond that. Half the schools never even bother to send rejection letters. I'm a very qualified applicant; it's just that for every job, there are often several hundred people applying. I'm to the point now that I'm going to have to take anything that's offered to me. I have to start repaying my student loans in November, and I have very little in savings. My university has offered me an adjunct position for the fall, and I've tentatively accepted it, but after going to school for the last 10 years, I'd really hoped to be making more than $5,000 a semester (without any healthcare whatsoever).

Not all high school graduates are ready for college. Some go only because they feel like they have to, and those are often the ones who get very little out of a college education. I even see graduate students who are still in school because they don't want to go out into the "real world." What so many of them don't realize is that they're wasting their own time and money not to mention the time of their classmates and professors if they're not committed to their own education. Not that students have to know right away what they want to major in or pursue as a career, but they need to be willing to explore and do the work necessary to figure things out.

Very often, I think returning students have a much better perspective. They have clearer goals and a better understanding of what they want out of life. Some "traditional" students (I hate the "traditional"/"non-traditional" division) possess that perspective, but I hate seeing bright people drifting aimlessly through college because their parents are footing the bill and they don't feel like actually working.

 

[anitram]

Yep, the main reason why I chose that program is because you can essentially get a job anywhere with that degree.

Ok, I feel better now than I did after reading through this thread the first time, lol.

No, you totally did the right thing. There are some undergrad programs that are worth it - anything that leads you to essentially having a professional degree, particularly if it carries a license with it is gold. They can't hire a non-paralegal to do paralegal work, and that's a huge advantage you have in the job market. Meanwhile when they're hiring somebody for general office work, you get several hundred applicants with varying qualifications.

 

[dazzlingamy]

its a pretty scary reality. Especially with your wack paying back schemes for your loans.

Bonoismymuse - i really feel for you. I think its totally disgraceful that you have put in so much effort, only to take a job way below your professional level and barely earn enough to pay back the student loans you took out SO you could gain a better position!

I agree with whoever said college is not for everyone - i think they really need to bring back specific degrees and trades, instead of widesweeping generalised degrees that way people gain specific skills.

I'm just thankful for my public relations degree and my post grad in teaching - no one can take my friggin jobs (well pr anyone can do, but i have and accreditation and am a memeber of the PRIA institute...so that is very favourable)

good luck with the job hunting!

 

[A_Wanderer]

Im not complaining as long as China and India are expanding.

 

[Liesje]

There are some undergrad programs that are worth it

I'm not really sure what you mean here. Some undergrad programs are inherently less "worth it"? According to who?

I was in one of the most popular programs, in a very broad field, in the worst economic climate in this country, but it was worth it to me because that's where I fit and that's what made me happy (after trying four other programs - with considerably more stable job prospects - that made me miserable). It doesn't guarantee me a job anywhere, but I'd rather be happy with myself. Professional degrees and vocational-track programs aren't simply better just because you'll get a higher paying job.

I suppose it all depends on what makes us happy. Work doesn't really make me happy or sad, I don't care for it one way or the other, I just do it because it pays the rent, puts food on the table, and gives me the opportunity (financially) to do what DOES make me very happy, which is volunteering for the dogs who pay nothing and put me in the hole with all the crap I spoil them with. I can't wait for Phil to get a job so I can volunteer full time. Do I regret going to college or think that was a waste? No way! I plan on using my degree later on in life, since it taught me a lot about administration, operating an organization within legal standards, marketing, and dealing with people in general. I think I accomplished a lot in college and I'm happy with how I can use that, even if it has nothing to do with a professional career.

I think ALL undergrad programs are "worth it", just for the right people at the right time in their lives.

 

[anitram]

I should have clarified....what I mean is that before, a few decades ago, a BA meant something and gave you a big leg up in the world. Today, an undergraduate program means nothing anymore, people (students and employers alike) take it for granted, and you are simply not as competitive in the employment race with a BA when so many people have how many other degrees concurrently.

I'm not saying nobody should do an undergraduate degree - obviously it has worth. But on its own, it has inherently less value in our world because people no longer see it as anything special or out of the ordinary. Everyone and their brother pretty much has one.

And I get your point about wanting to use your degree later on - I think most people do want to get into the field that interested them enough to spend 4 years studying. However, once again, you go into whatever field you've chosen and now you're competing with hundreds of people who have an undergrad and probably hundreds who have grad work or some other degree. Which makes them much more competitive and so the "worth" of your undergrad is by comparison lessened. 40 years ago, fewer people went back to school for second or third degrees, and the competition was therefore less stiff.

That's what I meant. So I'll rephrase: an undergraduate degree has worth, but alone, these days, you are much more handicapped without continuing your schooling than you would have been in a different time.

 

[No spoken words]

I guess if you treat college as a glorified training program for a specific job, then perhaps things are not what they were 20, 30 years ago. However, if you look at a college as an actual chance for higher learning, then I cannot see how anyone can term any degree not worth it. Even the worst institutions might provide you with that one class, that one professor, who fires your interest, or imagination, and spurs you on to do something you never imagined you'd be interested in.

I used my 4 years in college as a chance to get a degree in a certain field, but, I also took as many electives not related to my field of study as permissable, and I continue to take non-matric classes when time allows. I'm not pretending everyone should look at college as a 4 year liberal arts experience, but, it does sadden me when people look at college as a means to a professional end, only. I'm not implying anyone in here said or implied that, just saying that I see that attitude all the time, and it, for whatever reason, bothers me.

Oh, it might be worth adding that I do ok in my field, after starting as an intern, the very bottom, and climbing my way to whatever you'd want to call the level I'm currently at. And I'm in a field that brings me great joy, always has, regardless of the salary I've commanded. So, I feel like I made some decent choices regarding education and then about how to approach my jobs. I've noticed, over the past few years, in hiring new people, that they take maybe 2 minutes in an interview to ask about upward mobility, whereas in the past, we'd get to that, but it was not necessarily the first thing out of candidates' mouths. They also get antsy after a year if they are not promoted. It's like the example used before, about students being irked over getting a "C". Just because you worked hard and well for a year does not mean you magically get promoted. Eh.

Lastly, I agree with Bonoismymuse that students that return to school to complete unfinished degrees or get additional degrees make the best students, because their motivation is usually purer, and more mature.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[onebloodonelife]

Not all high school graduates are ready for college. Some go only because they feel like they have to, and those are often the ones who get very little out of a college education. I even see graduate students who are still in school because they don't want to go out into the "real world." What so many of them don't realize is that they're wasting their own time and money not to mention the time of their classmates and professors if they're not committed to their own education. Not that students have to know right away what they want to major in or pursue as a career, but they need to be willing to explore and do the work necessary to figure things out.

Very often, I think returning students have a much better perspective. They have clearer goals and a better understanding of what they want out of life. Some "traditional" students (I hate the "traditional"/"non-traditional" division) possess that perspective, but I hate seeing bright people drifting aimlessly through college because their parents are footing the bill and they don't feel like actually working.

I have to agree with you as a graduating high schooler this year. I know of so many kids in my class who are going to college, but like to party way too much, and are only going because "they should". It's ridiculous. Of course, they're the people who will end up flunking out, but they shouldn't have been in a college setting to begin with; they simply aren't ready to handle the responsibility of doing work without parents watching over their shoulders.

Good luck with your job search as well! I'm sure you'll find a great job

 

[anitram]

I guess if you treat college as a glorified training program for a specific job, then perhaps things are not what they were 20, 30 years ago. However, if you look at a college as an actual chance for higher learning, then I cannot see how anyone can term any degree not worth it.

Eh, I think my posts are being misunderstood, but whatever.

Look, of course there is value in going to get a degree. The purpose of a university was never to train you technically, it was to teach you to participate in critical thinking. That is still true today. However, let's also face reality here. College today is VASTLY more expensive than it used to be. There are people I know who have debt of $60K for an undergraduate degree. There is one I know who owes $75K. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to start out in life that deep in the hole? Particularly when an undergraduate degree, in most cases, is not going to lead you to a highly paid job! These kids are graduating into the workforce to make what, $35K annually? $50K if they're lucky? Well good luck paying off your loans and starting a family, buying a property in one of the expensive cities, etc. It's absolutely unreasonable.

So while in theory it's all nice that we can go and learn for 4 years, the reality of the matter is that it is no longer financially feasible to do so for a lot of students out there. And that's very, very tough.

My Mom is a prof at a top university. When she went to school, she studied English and did a double major in Art History because it interested her. So she dabbled. University was practically free back then and she had no debt so of course she didn't mind going to grad school which also practically cost her nothing and didn't put her in debt. She said that today, she would not advise my brother to do the same (he was thinking about it) unless he was absolutely certain only because the debt incurred is astronomical and the benefits are more and more questionable. If you absolutely love it, go ahead. But it's not unreasonable at all for somebody who is planning on having a family, or who has other personal interests to ask themselves: is this worth the debt that I'll be paying off for the next 20 years. For a lot of people, that answer will be no, and I can't blame them.

 

[ntalwar]

These kids are graduating into the workforce to make what, $35K annually? $50K if they're lucky? Well good luck paying off your loans and starting a family, buying a property in one of the expensive cities, etc. It's absolutely unreasonable.

It still beats having only a HS diploma, which is harder to advance with. I think there's something like a $20k+ annual income gap between those with a HS diploma and a 4 yr. degree.