stopping the chaos--??

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verte76

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This thread is not a debate thread. Rather, it is to get opinions on what we should do to stop the horrific looting and chaos in Baghdad, Basra and other cities. This stuff is hurting everyone concerned, particularly, of course, the people who live in these towns, most of whom are not involved in the looting and chaos but are certainly affected by it. What should be done by who? This stuff is really scaring me. Can you imagine what it's like to have a mess like this on your doorstep?
 
That?s a good question, verte76. I don?t have any satisfying answer what should be done. I think it would be great if UN peace enforcement and help organizations could get there to help, but that?s not an answer to the problem about what to do now, at the very moment.
 
In some town in the north (I think) they even blew up the market. Men with guns are all over the place. This :censored: has got to be stopped. You can't expect people to live with this.
 
Maybe we could ask the both responsible war parties to ensure safety in the part they control?

That's what international law says and it seems to me the only practical sollution.

(Both war parties have to ensure safety and health of the civilists under their control)

Klaus
 
As Kofi Annan said yesterday, there isn't any longer a functioning government in Iraq, so it's unrealistic to expect there to be some sort of Iraqi police or military force able to enforce order. Given that, it has to be the responsibility of some external party to ensure the safety and security of the Iraqi people. You could argue that it's the responsibility of the US and UK troops to do so, as they're the ones who created the instability in the first place (and yes, I realise it's debateable whether it was a good thing because it got rid of Saddam) and so should bear responsibility for restoring stability. On the other hand, maybe it would be better for the Iraqi people if there was an international peace-keeping force able to restore some sort of order before a government can be formed and then a police or military force to maintain the peace.

Also, it's essential that aid agencies are able to get into Iraq immediately, as there are still millions of people who are short of food and clean water and in need of healthcare. But of course it's difficult for aid agencies to operate in such unstable circumstances. :(

So...I'm not really sure. I just think that what the people of Iraq are living through now must be a nightmare and something has to be done to help them as soon as possible.
 
Yes, it's in the Geneva Conventions that the occupying force has to provide security for the people. So the U.S. and British military has to start acting as a police force, or at least part of it does. They just can't let this chaos continue. I don't think it's legal.
 
verte76 said:
Yes, it's in the Geneva Conventions that the occupying force has to provide security for the people. So the U.S. and British military has to start acting as a police force, or at least part of it does. They just can't let this chaos continue. I don't think it's legal.

I think the world has forgotten about the Geneva Convention.
 
OMG!!! What is this about the National Library? I work in a library. Oh, please, pass the Advil and let me call my shrink. This is too much. :mad: :censored: :scream:
 
This morning, the ashes were still smoldering at the Ministry for Religious Affairs, where a building housing thousands of Korans, many of them illuminated and hand written, several a thousand years old, had been burned to a charred shell. It was another severe blow to Iraq's 10,000 years of cultural history, along with the looting of the National Museum and the burning of the National Library, in which countless priceless artifacts and books were lost.

"When Baghdad fell to the Mongols in 1258, these books survived," said Abdel Karim Anwar Obeid, 42, the ministry's general manager for administration. "And now they didn't survive. You can't put a price on this loss.

from todays NYTimes :(
 
Oh, no, now they've destroyed manuscripts of *Korans*. This is yet another chapter in a sickening episode of cultural destruction. I can't believe it. These things survived the Mongol attack of 1258 but not the present madness. Pass the chicken soup and the Prozac, please.:sad: :mad: :censored: :scream:
 
Klaus said:


Maybe that helps to get some percent of the looted antiquities.?



Klaus Article[/URL]

Gosh, I hope so. This is a very positive development. I'm glad the British are supporting Iraqi/Sumerian/Mesopotamian culture. Also, international scholars are setting up some sort of network to try to get the looted antiquities back to Baghdad. U.S. scholars are involved with this. Hopefully some of these can be tracked down. They did get some of the stuff back from the Nazis. Here's wishing them some luck getting these things back. It's going to be tough for them to do anything with that "Gilgamesh" text. Hopefully that will be back in Baghdad before long.
 
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FizzingWhizzbees said:
I hope they're able to recover some of what has been stolen. It's very sad that so much more has been destroyed and can't ever be recovered. :sad:

Isn't that the truth.......they'll never get those Korans back.:madspit: :mad: :censored: :censored: :scream: :scream:
 
Klaus, that's exactly what Sullivan told the press when he discussed his resignation. There was an article about the resignations from Reuters on my ISP's headlines.
 
Klaus--Oops, that's not *exactly* what Sullivan said to the press. I think some medication I'm taking is causing brain damage. :mad: :censored: He said something to that effect, the U.S. could have prevented the destruction and didn't and that's why he resigned. He felt like it was the right thing to do. We cultural historians do love our artifacts especially if they are Sumerian/ Mesopotamian.
 
Klaus said:
verte: thanks! i didn't know that he resigned - thanks for that information

Actually there were two resignations. The report contained their comments to the press explaining their reasons for their resignations. They expressed their opinions that the tragedy could have been prevented, it wasn't, thus their resignations.
 
There's a stupid :censored: article in my home newspaper today about "leftists" having fits over the artifact thefts. I wish people wouldn't politicize this. Many conservatives are upset about the disaster. Some people think *everything* is politics these days. It's not. It's life.:mad: :censored: :censored:
 
Verte: thanks again for the info

Here's a BBC article about artifact thefts which dosn't blame "leftists"

Let's hope we don't fall back politically in the dark ages where art and education become "leftist stuff" again :(

Newsman on Iraq looting charge
Items are popping up for sale on the internet
A US television news employee has been charged with smuggling artworks and monetary bonds from Iraq.


Benjamin James Johnson - an engineer for Fox news - stands accused of bringing into the US 12 paintings taken from a palace belonging to Saddam Hussein's son Uday and also of making false statements to the police.

Mr Johnson, who was embedded with US troops during the Iraq war, was arrested at Dulles International Airport near Washington. Fox says he has been fired.

A US Government official warned returning soldiers and journalists that looting would not be tolerated.

"These items are not souvenirs or 'war trophies' but stolen goods that belong to the people of Iraq," Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security Gordon England said.

He was speaking at a news conference where he displayed looted objects including gold-plated weapons.

'Presents from Iraqis'

When stopped by Customs officials, Mr Johnson declared just $20 worth of cigarettes.

But a search of his luggage revealed the 12 paintings from Iraq.

Mr Johnson reportedly told the officials he had been given the paintings by Iraqi citizens, but later admitted that they had been removed from presidential palaces in Baghdad.

The paintings were part of a haul of stolen goods put on display by the US Customs Department.

Several other journalists and one American soldier are also under investigation.

US officials say the paintings themselves are not of any great value.

Online auctions

The FBI refused to say at which airport the object had been confiscated or the nature of the artefact, but customs officials across the country have been put on high alert amid suspicions that many of the stolen objects will end up on the US market.

Customs agents at a US airport believe they have seized at least one item taken from Baghdad museum, which was looted of thousands of valuable artefacts as Saddam Hussein's regime collapsed.

Many objects from Iraq, looted both at the end of the first Gulf War in 1991 and during the last, have already started turning up for sale at online auctioneers, experts say.

"You won't find the big, expensive pieces on the internet, but the smaller things that won't command as much attention," Dr Neil Brodie of the UK's Illicit Antiquities Research Centre told BBC News Online.

"It's these pieces that are much harder to track down."

Artistic co-operation

The US has come in for intense criticism from archaeologists and art historians for its failure to protect Baghdad's cultural heritage from looters when lawlessness broke out.

Three White House cultural advisers resigned in protest, and Washington subsequently announced plans to send FBI agents to join Interpol police in the recovery operation, both inside and outside Iraq.

The FBI says it will work closely with art collectors, auction houses, museum curators and online sellers to track down any Iraqi pieces put up for sale.

As well as the national museum in Baghdad, a museum in Mosul was looted and the capital's Islamic Library, which housed ancient manuscripts including one of the oldest surviving copies of the Koran, was ravaged by fire.

The UN's cultural agency Unesco has called the loss and destruction already suffered "a disaster".

PRESUMED MISSING
80,000 cuneiform tablets with world's earliest writing
Bronze figure of Akkadian king - 4,500 years old
Silver harp from ancient city of Ur - 4,000 years old
Three-foot carved Sumerian vase - 5,200 years old
Headless statue of Sumerian king Entemena - 4,600 years old
Carved sacred cup - 4,600 years old

I'm sure every honest conservative condemns this "robbery crusade" too :(

Klaus
 
Klaus said:
Verte: thanks again for the info

Here's a BBC article about artifact thefts which dosn't blame "leftists"

Let's hope we don't fall back politically in the dark ages where art and education become "leftist stuff" again :(



I'm sure every honest conservative condemns this "robbery crusade" too :(

Klaus



I hope art and education doesn't become "leftist" stuff again, either. I think this mentality is grossly unfair to conservatives. Some of the profs who taught me history were conservatives. One of these was a veteran; we even called him "Captain" rather than "Doctor" even though he had a Ph.D. I know conservatives who are talented musicians, dancers, writers, costume makers, visual artists, etc, etc. It's insulting to conservatives to assume that none of them are talented artistically or very well educated people. We know that that's garbage. :mad: :mad: :censored: :censored: :scream: :scream:
 
Klaus--Oh, I know. It's just that I don't think some of these :censored: idiots who write stuff like this in the newspapers know that they are doing a terrible injustice to their own. Anti-intellectuals are very annoying people, and unfortunately some of them write for the newspapers. :mad: :censored: :censored:
 
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I haven't heard anything about this. To me the important thing is getting the artifacts back. They need to confiscate all of the artifacts and send them back to Baghdad. Maybe there is a deal between the government and the people caught with looted objects. Of course I'm mad as hell at these :censored: jerks, but it might help them get the artifacts back in Baghdad.
 
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