Star Wars Episode 3: An Anti-Bush Film?

[Irvine511]

wow. props to Teta.

and to Earnie Shavers. you summed up what i was trying to say much more succinctly than i could have (i get very long winded about movies and directors and popular art and meaning from popular culture).

 

[STING2]

It's apparently not that irrelevant if Lucas himself is talking about it.

Star Wars was inspired from a lot of different things, and it seems that when he was writing it, in the early 70's, Vietnam might have crossed his mind. Why else would he be talking about it now, and comparing it to Iraq?

Yes Star Wars was inspired by a lot of things that are thousands of years old. Making a controversial political comments helps sell more tickets, plain and simple. The Movie was written 30 years ago and is about 1 mans fall from grace and his redemption. Lucas would be the first one to say that the Star Wars Saga is not about the US involvement in Vietnam! After having written it, if he sees parallels with political or historical events, fine.

 

[STING2]

yes, i knew the story in 1984 as a small child, but that doesn't mean that Lucas didn't purposely script the Anakin like that's getting so much press. it seems perfectly timed to echo contemporary politics, and Lucas is never going to come out and say, "well this is what i mean." films dont' work that way, directors don't work that way. many, many reviews have pointed out the anti-Bush/imperialism elements in this film. but it seems like you think films can only mean one thing, or do one thing, or that they're either about Rome or the USA and they can't possibly be about both.

scripts are simply edited versions of Lucas' story?

please, take a screenwriting class, or read some scripts.

The story was written over 30 years ago! Star Wars is not about Vietnam, the Vietcong, Saddam or George Bush. Star Wars is about one mans fall from grace and his redemption. The film borrows many of its idea's from religion and culture that is thousands of years old. It was never about modern politics.

Many many reviewers seem to be liberals who can't accept the fact that Bush won in 2004 by the first majority in 16 years and are searching for anything they could percieve as an attack on the Bush administration.

What Star Wars was about and what inspired and influenced the Saga was all well known a quarter of a century ago. Lucas told everyone then about the themes and traditions that were thousands of years old that inspired much of the movie. Not once did he mention Vietnam as an influence for the political situation(in the movies) then or that he considered the United States a democracy in danger of turning to an Empire during that period.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

What it really highlights is that both the Sith and Bush don't know how to get the people on side with a complete minimum of fuss. The Sith go after Anakin, why? They'd get their way every time if Padme was speaking for them and she would have been far easier to 'turn', not being a Jedi and all. And the 97% of the world who think Bush is a complete chump would change their tune in an instant if Natalie was in front of the cameras. Instead he's got the Cheney's, Rumsfelds, Wolfowitz's etc who all look like the perfect casting for 'Evil Overlord'. Stick Natalie up there. Invade which country? Whatever! Talk tax again! It's sexy!

Evil people are dumb.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Do you think that Bush is evil

 

[STING2]

Most South Vietnamese didn't support the U.S., because South Vietnam was a dictatorship. It's not as if the U.S. was trying to promote democracy in the region. In fact, the war started after they knew an election to unite Vietnam in the 1950s would yield a communist leadership. In other words, the U.S. was thwarting the will of the Vietnamese people in the name of "anti-communism."

Melon

My father was an advisor with a South Vietnamese Division in Vietnam. Most South Vienames did support the US and wanted remain independent and free of the Communist North. While the US lost 60,000 soldiers in Vietnam, the South Vietnames lost over 200,000 soldiers! South Vietnam at the time was just as much a democracy as South Korea was back then. It takes time to develop democracy.

The USA was trying to do precisely what they did in South Korea. South Korea today is a prosperous democracy thanks to USA military intervention. If the United States had not suddenly abandoned South Vietnam in 1975, it would be a democracy today and would be just as prosperous as South Korea.

The election in the 1950s had many in the North voting for a Communist dictatorship. The United States did not want to abandon those in the South that wanted to form a prosperous democracy, something that would never happen under the Communist North. It also did not want to see Communism continue to spread through the region. By the way, how many democratic elections has North Vietnam had since its brutal occupation of the South in 1975?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

what about the spiritual elements of the Star Wars movies? People used to bring that up. I was just reading this article

Jedi "Religion" Sees Dramatic Growth

http://www.explorefaith.org/news/index.html


George Lucas was baptized a Methodist, and raised in a Protestant home. Since that time, his views on spirituality have expanded greatly through study of Eastern religious traditions. The simple fact is that, through the Star Wars films, Lucas’ spiritual vision has had a profound effect on two generations of spiritual seekers.

Lucas also said, in that interview with Bill Moyers: “I would hesitate to call the Force God. It's designed primarily to make young people think about the mystery. Not to say, ‘Here's the answer.’ It’s to say, Think about this for a second. Is there a God? What does God look like? What does God sound like? What does God feel like? How do we relate to God? Just getting young people to think at that level is what I've been trying to do in the films. What eventual manifestation that takes place in terms of how they describe their God, what form their faith takes, is not the point of the movie.”

 

[Irvine511]

The story was written over 30 years ago! Star Wars is not about Vietnam, the Vietcong, Saddam or George Bush. Star Wars is about one mans fall from grace and his redemption. The film borrows many of its idea's from religion and culture that is thousands of years old. It was never about modern politics.

Many many reviewers seem to be liberals who can't accept the fact that Bush won in 2004 by the first majority in 16 years and are searching for anything they could percieve as an attack on the Bush administration.

What Star Wars was about and what inspired and influenced the Saga was all well known a quarter of a century ago. Lucas told everyone then about the themes and traditions that were thousands of years old that inspired much of the movie. Not once did he mention Vietnam as an influence for the political situation(in the movies) then or that he considered the United States a democracy in danger of turning to an Empire during that period.

the story is 30 years old, the SCRIPT is not. big, big difference. and we have Lucas' own comments.

though it's nice to see you the old "liberal" media canard.

and if tickets are the issue, why would Lucas want to be critical of the US? is that a good way to sell tickets? hardly.

also, as anyone who studies literature knows, it doesn't matter what the author wanted to say. it only matters how the text -- be it book, movie, or album -- is read by an audience, and whether or not those readings are valid. if people read parallels to Iraq and Vietnam wtih the rise of the Empire, and they can substantiate these readings with analysis, then that becomes a message of ROTS whether intended or not.

would bono ever say, "no, 'one' is about Guggi's break up, it's not about the Edge's marriage, it's not about AIDS, it's not about a gay son coming out to his father, it's not about Berlin, it's not about the band, it's only about what I SAY it's about when i wrote it in 1991." he would never say that; no artist worth anything woudl ever say that it can only be one thing, and that all other readings are invalid. i've taken fiction writing workshops, and it is AMAZING what can be read from your own writing that you might not have intended, but is still there in the text and it took someone else to point it out to you. artists make decisions, and choices, and they often don't know why they do what they do, and it takes a reader to connect the dots.

just look at the huge amount of homoeroticism and gay imagery on the Boy album. is Bono, or anyone in U2, gay or even bisexual? no. but that doesn't meant that such sexual issues wouldn't find their way into lyrics about a group of very young men starting to grow up.

 

[melon]

The USA was trying to do precisely what they did in South Korea. South Korea today is a prosperous democracy thanks to USA military intervention. If the United States had not suddenly abandoned South Vietnam in 1975, it would be a democracy today and would be just as prosperous as South Korea.

Well, I don't defend communism. I guess my point is what's the difference between electing a communist who turns the nation into a dictatorship and electing a capitalist who turns the nation into a dictatorship?

Melon

 

[STING2]

Well, I don't defend communism. I guess my point is what's the difference between electing a communist who turns the nation into a dictatorship and electing a capitalist who turns the nation into a dictatorship?

Melon

South Korea, the government that was initially established there after the war was considered by many to be a military dictatorship. But with the continued support of the United States, it slowly evolved into a democracy. This is what would have happened in South Vietnam had the United States not abandon the country in the mid 1970s, regardless of how much progress the South Vietnamese government had or had not made by that time in establishing a true democracy.

Vietnam today is ruled by a Communist dictatorship like North Korea. Had the United States remained to protect South Vietnam, it would have developed into a prosperous democracy just like South Korea is today. With the Communist dictatorship, there of course have been no attempts to develop a democracy.

 

[phanan]

Yes Star Wars was inspired by a lot of things that are thousands of years old. Making a controversial political comments helps sell more tickets, plain and simple. The Movie was written 30 years ago and is about 1 mans fall from grace and his redemption. Lucas would be the first one to say that the Star Wars Saga is not about the US involvement in Vietnam! After having written it, if he sees parallels with political or historical events, fine.

I would agree that Star Wars isn't about US involvement in Vietnam, but I'm sure underlying political overtones might have inspired CERTAIN ELEMENTS in it.

I don't think, however, that he's trying to be controversial to sell more tickets. This is one movie that will sell millions regardless.

 

[STING2]

the story is 30 years old, the SCRIPT is not. big, big difference. and we have Lucas' own comments.

though it's nice to see you the old "liberal" media canard.

and if tickets are the issue, why would Lucas want to be critical of the US? is that a good way to sell tickets? hardly.

also, as anyone who studies literature knows, it doesn't matter what the author wanted to say. it only matters how the text -- be it book, movie, or album -- is read by an audience, and whether or not those readings are valid. if people read parallels to Iraq and Vietnam wtih the rise of the Empire, and they can substantiate these readings with analysis, then that becomes a message of ROTS whether intended or not.

would bono ever say, "no, 'one' is about Guggi's break up, it's not about the Edge's marriage, it's not about AIDS, it's not about a gay son coming out to his father, it's not about Berlin, it's not about the band, it's only about what I SAY it's about when i wrote it in 1991." he would never say that; no artist worth anything woudl ever say that it can only be one thing, and that all other readings are invalid. i've taken fiction writing workshops, and it is AMAZING what can be read from your own writing that you might not have intended, but is still there in the text and it took someone else to point it out to you. artists make decisions, and choices, and they often don't know why they do what they do, and it takes a reader to connect the dots.

just look at the huge amount of homoeroticism and gay imagery on the Boy album. is Bono, or anyone in U2, gay or even bisexual? no. but that doesn't meant that such sexual issues wouldn't find their way into lyrics about a group of very young men starting to grow up.

The story is what is important, especially in talking about the political situation which is the subject of the thread. The political events of the first 3 Star Wars movies were written 30 years ago. All three Scripts were completed prior to the release of episode I in 1999 and Lucas had toyed with the idea of releasing the movies every year or two years.

We have what Lucas said about all 6 movies from a quarter of a century ago and nothing has changed since then.

If liberals who write for x newspaper or magazine want to see the evil villan in any film as being Bush or his administration, they can do that. Dream and fantasize all you want. Maybe Jabba The Hut is Michael Moore?!

Oh, U2 have said specifically what they wrote certain songs about over the course of their career.

 

[STING2]

I would agree that Star Wars isn't about US involvement in Vietnam, but I'm sure underlying political overtones might have inspired CERTAIN ELEMENTS in it.

I don't think, however, that he's trying to be controversial to sell more tickets. This is one movie that will sell millions regardless.

George Lucas talked about what inspired everything in the movies a quarter of a century ago current political events was not one of them.

 

[phanan]

Many many reviewers seem to be liberals who can't accept the fact that Bush won in 2004 by the first majority in 16 years and are searching for anything they could percieve as an attack on the Bush administration.

It could be said that many many conservatives are very defensive when someone questions the Bush administration, when all we are talking about here is whether George Lucas sees a correlation between Star Wars and current events.

I'm a centrist myself, but just because I theorize about what a person is thinking when he creates art doesn't automatically make me a liberal.

 

[phanan]

George Lucas talked about what inspired everything in the movies a quarter of a century ago current political events was not one of them.

Just because he might not have mentioned Vietnam publicly at the time does not mean he wasn't thinking about it at all. We obviously don't know everything.

 

[A_Wanderer]

He makes a point in the Episode 1 commentary about having a hi-tech army being defeated by a low tech enemy, both the ewoks and the gungans being the examples, and then how technology is unreliable and can be overcome in the whole Clone Wars.

Star Wars may have elements of dictatorship and struggle, Lucas may comment how he sees these issues reflected in the US but he is not saying he wrote it as an allegory. The overall messages of good versus evil and that relationship goes beyond politics.

I myself see the Empire as totalitarianism, it is in many ways like Germany falling under the sway of Hitler. One could see that piece that is repeated time and time again where power is consolidated by evil leaders and the people suffer; I think that that is more stark when looking at communism, nazism or political Islam, others may see it in the US where Bush is President.

Oh and Nute Gunray (Newt Gingrich) and Lott Dod (Trent Lott) of the Trade Federation there are a few bits of influence there but it is hardly going to be outright this equals this and that means this and nothing else.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

All three Scripts were completed prior to the release of episode I in 1999 and Lucas had toyed with the idea of releasing the movies every year or two years.

You mean the scripts for the 3 prequels? If so, that's flat out wrong. Go grab the Attack of the Clones dvd and watch the special features. For that one at least, the script wasn't started until well after Ep 1 had been released and done it's run. I don't know when the Ep 3 script was written, but it appears that he does one at a time, in between each film. I'm sure he's known the rough story line for all of them since the mid 70's, but the details are all filled in later, and I'm sure a miriad of minor changes are made during actual filming, particularly with dialogue. For example, the "with us or against us" comparison. Bush was given a lot of stick for that exactly because it did sound like a line from a bad Bruce Willis film, not something a supposed international statesman should say. Whether Lucas wrote the similar line before or after Bush said it, it wasn't shot until 2003, well after Bush said it. It is so similar that there's no way Lucas or anyone else could read it and not think "that sounds a lot like that Bush line". Whether that, and other things, meant anything to him or not is where the debate is, and only he can answer that, and I would say that if he is smart he never will.

What can't be debated is this Vietnam question, because he did answer that. STING, you still saying that Vietnam was not an inspiration is really you arguing with George Lucas. The guy has flat out said that it was one of the rough inspirations for the overall theme of the whole series. He then says that he sees parallels between Vietnam and Iraq, in the political evolution sense that he's referencing in the films. Maybe he is playing up to his own political beliefs and doing a bit of revisionist history on himself, maybe not. But if he says it, you can't argue it. George Lucas is saying he did something, and you're saying he didn't.

 

[Irvine511]

Star Wars may have elements of dictatorship and struggle, Lucas may comment how he sees these issues reflected in the US but he is not saying he wrote it as an allegory. The overall messages of good versus evil and that relationship goes beyond politics.

agreed, but i also think that the prequels are very much about how a democracy -- notice that even "Queen" amidala was elected to the Senate -- falls into a dictatorship. i view it as a cautionary tale, and i would also venture a guess that Lucas thinks we are on our way to becoming such a form of government.

not that we are, or that we are even close, but that there lies potential -- as it does within all countries.

Lucas has said that Vietnam influenced the first movies, and he is on record saying that the parallels between Iraq and Vietnam are striking.

what more do we need?

as you say, it's not a specific allegory, but as i said, these things are devices to tell a story. you also make a good point about the Ming the Merciless ... uh, i mean the Trade Federation people ... and their apparent comparisons to prominent Republicans. is it that much of a stretch that Annakin would say, in essence, "you are either with me or against me" and that this is a specific reference to Bush's late September 2001 speech (which was, imho, his finest moment) where he said that you are either with us or with the terrorists?

as for the scripts -- no, they were not complete in 1999 for all three films. outlines where there, the story might have been there, but the dialogue was not. and then there's the whole editing process, what makes it into the film and what does not which is often as important as the scripts themselves. ROTS was not edited before 1999.

as for U2 and Bono's lyrics, they have ALWAYS said that they keep things purposefully vague so that many might find a way into the song.

 

[phanan]

Star Wars may have elements of dictatorship and struggle, Lucas may comment how he sees these issues reflected in the US but he is not saying he wrote it as an allegory. The overall messages of good versus evil and that relationship goes beyond politics.

I agree. I just think there are subtle references, that's all.

 

[bonoman]

I cant believe i just read a 4 page thread about Bush and Star Wars.

My head hurts!

 

[STING2]

You mean the scripts for the 3 prequels? If so, that's flat out wrong. Go grab the Attack of the Clones dvd and watch the special features. For that one at least, the script wasn't started until well after Ep 1 had been released and done it's run. I don't know when the Ep 3 script was written, but it appears that he does one at a time, in between each film. I'm sure he's known the rough story line for all of them since the mid 70's, but the details are all filled in later, and I'm sure a miriad of minor changes are made during actual filming, particularly with dialogue. For example, the "with us or against us" comparison. Bush was given a lot of stick for that exactly because it did sound like a line from a bad Bruce Willis film, not something a supposed international statesman should say. Whether Lucas wrote the similar line before or after Bush said it, it wasn't shot until 2003, well after Bush said it. It is so similar that there's no way Lucas or anyone else could read it and not think "that sounds a lot like that Bush line". Whether that, and other things, meant anything to him or not is where the debate is, and only he can answer that, and I would say that if he is smart he never will.

What can't be debated is this Vietnam question, because he did answer that. STING, you still saying that Vietnam was not an inspiration is really you arguing with George Lucas. The guy has flat out said that it was one of the rough inspirations for the overall theme of the whole series. He then says that he sees parallels between Vietnam and Iraq, in the political evolution sense that he's referencing in the films. Maybe he is playing up to his own political beliefs and doing a bit of revisionist history on himself, maybe not. But if he says it, you can't argue it. George Lucas is saying he did something, and you're saying he didn't.

When did George Lucas say from 1977 to 1984 that Vietnam is what inspired the Star Wars films? Please site a qoute and date. After one has finished a film and they say they see parallels between the films politics and current events is a hell of a lot different then saying the films were inspired by this particular war or event.

Once again, the stories were written over 30 years ago and the political backdropped used is ancient Rome and most of the themes come from culture and traditions that are thousands of years old. The film is about one man's fall from grace and eventual redemption. Its not about George Bush, the situation in Iraq, or any other thing liberals today would love to fantasize that Lucas is taking a swipe at. The movies were written over 30 years ago based on idea's from Lucas had when he was very young. This was well documented by Lucas himself over 20 years ago.

 

[STING2]

agreed, but i also think that the prequels are very much about how a democracy -- notice that even "Queen" amidala was elected to the Senate -- falls into a dictatorship. i view it as a cautionary tale, and i would also venture a guess that Lucas thinks we are on our way to becoming such a form of government.

not that we are, or that we are even close, but that there lies potential -- as it does within all countries.

Lucas has said that Vietnam influenced the first movies, and he is on record saying that the parallels between Iraq and Vietnam are striking.

what more do we need?

as you say, it's not a specific allegory, but as i said, these things are devices to tell a story. you also make a good point about the Ming the Merciless ... uh, i mean the Trade Federation people ... and their apparent comparisons to prominent Republicans. is it that much of a stretch that Annakin would say, in essence, "you are either with me or against me" and that this is a specific reference to Bush's late September 2001 speech (which was, imho, his finest moment) where he said that you are either with us or with the terrorists?

as for the scripts -- no, they were not complete in 1999 for all three films. outlines where there, the story might have been there, but the dialogue was not. and then there's the whole editing process, what makes it into the film and what does not which is often as important as the scripts themselves. ROTS was not edited before 1999.

as for U2 and Bono's lyrics, they have ALWAYS said that they keep things purposefully vague so that many might find a way into the song.

Where did Lucas specifically say that the political back drop in Star Wars was influenced by Vietnam? Can you site one article from 1977 to 1984 in print or on video where Lucas says precisely that?

Making statements today after the films are finished that the movie seems to parallel this current event or something from recent history is not the same thing as saying the film was origionally inspired by that event.


As for U2 and Bono's lyrics, they would be the first to tell that there is nothing Vague about songs like "Pride" or "New Years Day" as well as many other songs. Also, not everyone including U2 themselves(from what I have read) would agree with your description of BOY and its contents.

 

[VertigoGal]

in my simplistic mind I always thought it was all about the Americans vs the Commies (at least eps 4-6, dont really remember the other 2)

at any rate, my friends and I on the last day of school(this fri!!!), we're getting costumes and going to the movies...and were not gonna see star wars! its gonna be awesome...

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Originally posted by STING2
When did George Lucas say from 1977 to 1984 that Vietnam is what inspired the Star Wars films? Please site a qoute and date. After one has finished a film and they say they see parallels between the films politics and current events is a hell of a lot different then saying the films were inspired by this particular war or event.

Umm, did you read past my first sentence? He said it the other day, hence why I said;

Maybe he is playing up to his own political beliefs and doing a bit of revisionist history on himself, maybe not.

I don't know what George Lucas said or did in 1977. I know what he said the other day.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I care more about Greedo shooting first than what inspired some dialogue in ROTS.

 

[phanan]

^Now that's something we can all agree on.

 

[trevster2k]

Entertainment Weekly#820 May 20,2005 "By Lucas' own calculation, 60 percent of the prequel plot he dreamed up decades earlier takes place in Sith. The remaining 40 percent he split evenly between Menace and Clones, meaning each film contained a lot of... filler.




CANNES - Since Revenge of the Sith debuted at Cannes on Sunday, Star Wars creator George Lucas has been answering questions about the movie's political subtext.

The question on the minds of many people who have seen the new film: does it contain rhetorical jabs aimed at U.S. President George W. Bush?


Revenge tells the story of how Anakin Skywalker – the Jedi Knight played by Canada's Hayden Christensen – becomes corrupted by the dark side of the Force, turning into the evil cyborg Darth Vader in the process.

Just before the film's climactic lightsaber battle between Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Skywalker tells his former mentor, "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy."

The line has been prompting laughs from preview audiences, who believe it to be a deliberate paraphrase of Bush's warning to the global community after the Sept. 11 attacks: "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

The backdrop to Anakin's fall is the parallel story of how a benevolent galactic government, the Republic, sinks into a dictatorship through the machinations of the evil Palpatine – who stages a phony war as part of his ascent.

"This is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause," says senator Padmé Amidala (Natalie Portman) when the galactic legislature grants Palpatine's request for extraordinary wartime powers aimed at reorganizing the Republic into an empire.

At a press conference, Lucas said the film does mirror history, but he did not set out to comment on U.S. foreign policy under Bush.

"As you go through history, I didn't think it was going to get quite this close. So it's just one of those recurring things," he said.

"I hope this doesn't come true in our country. Maybe the film will waken people to the situation," Lucas added jokingly.

Lucas also said he penned the film long before the U.S. went to war against Iraq.

"When I wrote it, Iraq didn't exist," the filmmaker said with a laugh.

"We were just funding Saddam Hussein and giving him weapons of mass destruction. We didn't think of him as an enemy at that time." He added that the "parallels between what we did in Vietnam and what we're doing in Iraq now are unbelievable."


As research for writing the prequel trilogy, Lucas studied how democracies become dictatorships with the consent of the electorate.

"You sort of see these recurring themes where a democracy turns itself into a dictatorship, and it always seems to happen kind of in the same way, with the same kinds of issues, and threats from the outside, needing more control. A democratic body, a senate, not being able to function properly because everybody's squabbling, there's corruption."

Although his films are not overtly political, Lucas has included some allusions to U.S. politics in previous episodes of Star Wars. In The Phantom Menace he named characters after politicians: Nute Gunray, for instance, was named for Newt Gingrich, the former Republican speaker of the House.

Lucas himself has steered clear of speaking out on politics by endorsing specific candidates, choosing instead to champion broad causes such as education.

Since Bush first came to power, he has inspired a growing list of films, including Fahrenheit 9/11, Team America: World Police and Silver City, as well as television programs like That's My Bush!.

Revenge of the Sith opens to the general public on Thursday.




Premiere magazine quote:"You have to remember, this whole thing was written thirty years ago, says Lucas of the original Star Wars story, which he wanted to reflect "how Ceasar came to power" in a sci-fi setting. At the time, Nixon and the Vietnam war were deeply affecting the director, who had most recently completed American Graffiti. "A very powerful and technological superpower trying to take over a country of peasants was big on my mind," he says. "The fact that history repeats itself is a little shocking." May 2005

I hope this helps your discussion guys

 

[A_Wanderer]

 

[trevster2k]

You left out M&Ms, Burger King and Pepsi.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Oh I didnt't make it