Stanley Tookie Williams

[trevster2k]

The death penalty is the ultimate denial of liberty, a secular argument could be made that on that basis it is a justifiable punishment in cases of murder, one could also envision cases where people could be rendered brain dead or more malicious yet a state of conciousness without being able to control their bodies.

Someone's been watching Minority Report.

 

[AliEnvy]

Hahaha well this just keeps getting more and more twisted now doesn't it...that last idea reminded me of the punishment for sloth in the movie Seven, but I digress.

Ok, go ahead and make the secular agument please, that's what I've been waiting for lol.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think we all know where that idea comes from

 

[elevateandy]

How is it better off? How does killing him serve the public good?

Are you serious? How does killing him serve the public good? The guy was a murdering cold-blooded killer- what?...you want him free?

Why don't you picture your mother or father or sister or whoever brutally killed by this asshole for no reason at all? You still want to pay to keep him comfortable for the rest of his life in a nice comfy jail cell. He was a celebrity in there and probably had whatever he wanted.

If they killed every convicted murderer within 24 hours of the conviction the same way they had killed their victims, I bet there would be less murders.

 

[AliEnvy]

Are you serious? How does killing him serve the public good? The guy was a murdering cold-blooded killer- what?...you want him free?

That's the presumptuous leap in logic I asked you not to make earlier.

If he is in prison for life, how does killing him serve anything other than your bloodlust?

 

[BVS]

Are you serious? How does killing him serve the public good? The guy was a murdering cold-blooded killer- what?...you want him free?

Why is it you ignore prison terms?

You still haven't proven how a dealth penalty make society any better or safer than life in prison...

Why don't you picture your mother or father or sister or whoever brutally killed by this asshole for no reason at all? You still want to pay to keep him comfortable for the rest of his life in a nice comfy jail cell. He was a celebrity in there and probably had whatever he wanted.

I don't have to imagine; my 19 year old cousin, who was like a sister, was murdered by a jealous lover. He's serving a life sentence. The family didn't want the death penalty. No celeb status and he has to live with it the rest of his long life.

If they killed every convicted murderer within 24 hours of the conviction the same way they had killed their victims, I bet there would be less murders.

You mean if we had a system where you were guilty until proven innocent and there were no checks and balances? Sounds great...

 

[angelordevil]

As Trevster pointed out earlier, there are so many innocents who are wrongly convicted of murder –we’ve seen too many lives ruined on that stage alone here in Canada. These are individuals who’ve lost the most productive years of their lives. The possibility of executing a conceivably innocent person is repeating the act of murder.

So, what to do about the guilty? I don’t have all the answers, but I do believe in life-long sentences matching the severity of the crime committed. There’s a lot of grey area, but ultimately, isn’t it better to be forced to learn from your mistakes, forced to contemplate, and hopefully forced to evolve from that point of darkness when the crime was carried out? This is the whole idea behind putting someone in jail. Admittedly, this will be impossible for some criminals to wrap their heads around--those who are clinically insane, etc.

The scariest realization is, however, is that most murderers are not as removed genetically from the rest of us as we’d like to believe. Most killers are not of the serial variety.

What I am dead-set against is an eye-for-an-eye mentality that seems to be so prevalent in U.S. culture and politics at the moment. The country’s leaders are initiating wars of aggression, looking for the quick solutions against perceived “evils,” and virtually violating every aspect of international human rights laws along the way.

It’s very sad, but not surprising, that they continue the same philosophy at home with the death penalty. As shown by the person who posted those pictures earlier, there is a culture of people who enjoy the immediate gratification of seeing a life being snuffed out, or a country being bombarded.

The harder path, and less immediately gratifying, is finding the societal motivations—and ultimately solutions—revolving around criminal acts.

It’s simply not as sexy to address the poverty of individuals, the lack of education, and the inability of poor people to find worth in their lives.

 

[elevateandy]

Why is it you ignore prison terms?

You still haven't proven how a dealth penalty make society any better or safer than life in prison...

I don't have to imagine; my 19 year old cousin, who was like a sister, was murdered by a jealous lover. He's serving a life sentence. The family didn't want the death penalty. No celeb status and he has to live with it the rest of his long life.




You mean if we had a system where you were guilty until proven innocent and there were no checks and balances? Sounds great...

Ignore prison terms? Why should that person be allowed to breath after they have taken life?

Life is a gift no matter where it is spent. Why should they be allowed that gift?

The death penalty eliminates a person from society- no more problems at anyone's cost.

I guarantee you there would be less crime if it was used more- prison is not scary nor a lesson for many criminals these days. It is probably better than their previous homelife.

Guilty before proven innocent? I never said that or anything close to that...don't play CNN with my words. I stated that once a criminal has been found guilty of a brutal crime- kill them.

 

[melon]

Guilty before proven innocent? I never said that or anything close to that...don't play CNN with my words. I stated that once a criminal has been found guilty of a brutal crime- kill them.

Whether you like it or not, the appeals process is a vital part of a democracy. Every check has its balance, just as the Constitution intended. Now if you want to complain about the time between appeals, that's within your right. Most of these appeals are not back-to-back, as far as I know.

Melon

 

[AliEnvy]

Life is a gift no matter where it is spent. Why should they be allowed that gift?

Maybe because it was not your gift to take back.

 

[elevateandy]

Maybe because it was not your gift to take back.

It was not Tookie's right to take back the life of his victims' now was it?

 

[diamond]

Anyway...

All I know is last night before turning in, I offered up a prayer to God accompanied with my sweetheart that Tookie's soul be showed some mercy and that the ppl he killed here and hurt here forgive him and was glad he attempted to do some good with his life while awaiting completion of his sentence. He had changed his ways and encouraged kids to to keep out of gangs. Maybe this was part of God's grace working here, some could speculate.

I was also glad to hear what he told Jesse Jackson to not avenge his death but to remember him by doing good things as he has tried to do during alot of his prison sentence.

In the end, Tookie took his penality like a man.

Liberals need to stop calling completion of a prison sentence vengence, when it's in fact justice carried out.

That's all.

And no, nobody's giddy about watching any murderer die, if they are, then thet have their own issues to deal with.

Peace,

db9

 

[BVS]

Ignore prison terms? Why should that person be allowed to breath after they have taken life?

Life is a gift no matter where it is spent. Why should they be allowed that gift?

Gift given by who? And why are we the ones to take it away?

The death penalty eliminates a person from society- no more problems at anyone's cost.

Except living with the burden that some may be innocent.

I guarantee you there would be less crime if it was used more- prison is not scary nor a lesson for many criminals these days. It is probably better than their previous homelife.

LOL Evidence shows this guarantee is BS. I'm sure prison is a vacation.

Guilty before proven innocent? I never said that or anything close to that...don't play CNN with my words. I stated that once a criminal has been found guilty of a brutal crime- kill them.

You said 24 hours... I'm not playing with words. That's the only way a 24 hour system would work. Do you know how many innocent people we would have killed? Don't be foolish.

 

[BVS]

Liberals need to stop calling completion of a prison sentence vengence, when it's in fact justice carried out.

I'm glad you and all the conservatives have power of absolution and know this for a fact.

 

[AliEnvy]

It was not Tookie's right to take back the life of his victims' now was it?

Nope, sure wasn't.

If you believe fundamentally that taking life is wrong, there's no justification for taking Tookie's life.

Sure, go ahead and do it, call it absolute justice or whatever makes you feel better about it, but really, it's no better than the original crime.

 

[phanan]

Anyway...

All I know is last night before turning in, I offered up a prayer to God accompanied with my sweetheart that Tookie's soul be showed some mercy and that the ppl he killed here and hurt here forgive him and was glad he attempted to do some good with his life while awaiting completion of his sentence. He had changed his ways and encouraged kids to to keep out of gangs. Maybe this was part of God's grace working here, some could speculate.

I was also glad to hear what he told Jesse Jackson to not avenge his death but to remember him by doing good things as he has tried to do during alot of his prison sentence.

In the end, Tookie took his penality like a man.

Liberals need to stop calling completion of a prison sentence vengence, when it's in fact justice carried out.

That's all.

And no, nobody's giddy about watching any murderer die, if they are, then thet have their own issues to deal with.

Peace,

db9

Just wondering, but do you have any FYM comments that don't mention the word "liberal"? You seem to have a curious fixation with it...

 

[diamond]

Just wondering, but do you have any FYM comments that don't mention the word "liberal"? You seem to have a curious fixation with it...

no.
;

 

[AliEnvy]

Diamond, if God means something to you, how is it that the death penalty is acceptable?

 

[BVS]

Diamond, if God means something to you,

He just likes to play God.

 

[elevateandy]

Gift given by who? And why are we the ones to take it away?

Except living with the burden that some may be innocent.

LOL Evidence shows this guarantee is BS. I'm sure prison is a vacation.

You said 24 hours... I'm not playing with words. That's the only way a 24 hour system would work. Do you know how many innocent people we would have killed? Don't be foolish.

Don't be foolish- I am not the one who can't comprehend?

I said 24 hours from CONVICTION not the crime.

I said IF life is a gift than why do we grant a person like Tookie life in prison? He did not.

You should run under the Democratic ticket and take old Jesse Jackson as your mate- you have a gift for twisting things.

 

[BVS]

Don't be foolish- I am not the one who can't comprehend?

I said 24 hours from CONVICTION not the crime.

Which would eliminate the appeals process and you would have killed many innocent people.

I said IF life is a gift than why do we grant a person like Tookie life in prison?

Now you are just lying.
You said:

Life is a gift no matter where it is spent.

You should run under the Democratic ticket and take old Jesse Jackson as your mate- you have a gift for twisting things.

And you make a great Republican politician. You lie and don't bring any facts to the table.

 

[AliEnvy]

At the end of the day, arguing the ins and outs of the justice system is meaningless.

You either believe capital punishment is morally wrong or you believe it's the fair price to pay.

What I would like to know, from Diamond or any other self-professed Christian who is pro-death penalty, is how you rationalize it in the context of your spiritual beliefs.

 

[hiphop]

Thank you for the links. They made for some interesting reading. A couple of thoughts:

1. I'm not sure a case was made to distinguish, on a Scriptural basis, the difference between a death penalty and the killing of a tyrant. Actually, no Scripture was cited except for the references to "righteous Hebrews overthrowing tyrants" and "he who receives the sword deserves to perish by the sword." It should be noted that righteous Hebrews killed many more than just tyrants. And perishing by the sword suggests the Old Testament establishment of a death penalty (one of the few, if not the only, law mentioned in each of the five books of the Pentateuch).

2. Assuming we accept the permissibility of killing tyrants, who is the tyrant in this case? The governor was not tasked with establishing guilt or innocence, nor was he asked to select a punishment. His only role was to evaluate the case to determine if the circumstances justified commuting Tookie’s sentence. On the other side, you have a man who established one of the most violent gangs in Southern California – one that has led to countless bloodshed of gang members and innocent bystanders alike. Tookie seems far more tyrant like to me.

3. I noticed that one link was to a Catholic encyclopedia. You claim that the Governor betrayed Austrian values. Yet those Austrian values are defined by religious reference material. To what degree would you call Austria a theocracy if such values are defined by Catholic writings?

just a quick reply, tireeeed party etc.

2. Tookie may be like a bad man, but surely he cant be a tyrant. after all, he didnt have any political leadership function. and we´re talking about political tyrants. leaders who suppress. i´m not saying arnold is a tyrant - he´s elected and everything. that whole discussion is a side topic to the ongoing one.

3. first many Austrians are Catholics. So you know, those things go hand in hand.. I would not say the Austrian society is Christian; you probably would be reluctant to call the American society Christian, because there is freedom of religion and many other religions are practiced in Austria and in the United States.

However, with Austrian values I did not necessarily mean Christian values - but rather our way of jurisdiction and execution. We dont have death penalty, ok we also dont have lots of criminality (compared to other countries) or lotsa guns, ..
in the political climate here it is unthinkable that death penalty is introduced (whereas we have to mention the racist behavior of the Austrian police; about every year an African is killed, and it was always a "mistake").

so I mentioned the values of Austrian society rather than Christian ones in that case, even if it is absolutely a Christian value to be against death penalty (excluding the killing of tyrants, like discussed above).

whoop.

 

[hiphop]

Europeans outraged at Schwarzenegger



What ever achievements Schwarzenegger led to the naming of the sports stadium are now gone because he did not block a death penalty handed down 20 years ago?

Isn't this just another form of vengence?

shall we quote a little more of the article.


The execution of convicted killer Stanley Tookie Williams sparked outrage Tuesday throughout Europe, which has a deep aversion to capital punishment sustained by the painful memory of state-organized murder during the Nazi era.

The disappointment was particularly strong in Austria, native country of Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, where many had hoped the former bodybuilder and film star would spare the 51-year-old Williams.

(...)

Six decades after World War II, opposition to the death penalty remains deeply entrenched in Germany and Austria, a stance resulting from remorse for the evils committed by these countries under Adolf Hitler and an attempt to prevent future state-sponsored killing.

(...)

At the Vatican, Pope Benedict XVI's top official for justice matters denounced the execution.

"We know the death penalty doesn't resolve anything," said Cardinal Renato Martino. "Even a criminal is worthy of respect because he is a human being. The death penalty is a negation of human dignity."

 

[hiphop]

Thou shalt not kill.

Pretty simple, yes?

Noooooo..... its not that simple, according to Robertson.

And other self-proclaimed conservative Christians.

You know what... I´m a Catholic. They are not following the rule of the Pope. They don´t follow Luther either. Or did he advocate death penalty? No, he didn´t.

Hah. The American Conservative Christian Sect. I´d wait to see them waving their pamphlets in underground stations like the witness Jehovas do, but I suspect they´re far too powerful to need that kind of promotion.

 

[AliEnvy]

Well to be honest, I'm not interested in the Pope's rules or Luther's rules or Robertson's rules.

That's why I went straight to the commandments. They didn't come with subparagraphs of applicable circumstances.

So I'm still waiting for an actual explanation, if there is one.

 

[BVS]

So I'm still waiting for an actual explanation, if there is one.

I can tell you the only piece of scripture that they will use and its;

"live by the sword and die by the sword"

because I've seen it offered several times in trying to justify the two conflicting beliefs.

But that piece of scripture say nothing to me about government sanctioned punishment. It speaks to me of lifestyle. If you live the life of a gun toting mobster you will probably die that way.

 

[AliEnvy]

Well, maybe that piece of scripture is fine if you're Jewish, although I prefer your interpretation.

But if you are Christian (whatever denomination), then I believe the lesson is turn the other cheek.

But maybe I'm missing something...so set me straight, Diamond.

 

[BVS]

Well, maybe that piece of scripture is fine if you're Jewish

Well it was said by Jesus. But it's widely misinterpreted.

It was stated when a disciple drew his sword and cutt off the ear of a soldier.

Which holds the biggest irony, for if Jesus ever wished any vengence or violent justice it would have been against those who wrongly punished him.

 

[elevateandy]

Which would eliminate the appeals process and you would have killed many innocent people.



Now you are just lying.
You said:


And you make a great Republican politician. You lie and don't bring any facts to the table.

Thank you for the compliment....I usually vote Republican.

...I also love being right. Deep down inside..in places you don't talk about at parties...you know I am right.

I thought after this last election- it would show you people that you better stop relying on bullshit to get elected.

You should read the book "ATLAS SHRUGGED"