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Old 10-13-2007, 12:43 PM   #41
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Same-sex marriage is absolutely being quarreled over in legislature. That's why it's such an issue! Many conservatives are trying to put through bills banning same-sex marriage. Many liberals want to legalize civil unions.
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Old 10-13-2007, 12:53 PM   #42
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Originally posted by INDY500
You see same-sex marriage as a civil rights issue, fine, but that's how I see the issue of abortion. What else have they in common? They are being quarreled over in courthouses, not legislatures. Judge shopped by both sides trying to get an agreeable outcome. That's what makes them wedge issues, a failure to act legislatively.
Abortion is far more complicated, because it becomes a question as to whether the "unborn," who legally have no rights having not "been born," should trump the rights of the mother. In other words, should a woman be legally forced to have a child against her will? Frankly, these are questions I struggle with, as well.

But this only accents my disappointment with how "abortion" and "same-sex marriage" get lumped together. They are two separate issues. Abortion deals with quasi-existential issues of what defines "life," whereas same-sex marriage and larger issues of gay rights are pretty clear cut, thanks to the 14th amendment.

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Just don't argue as A_Wanderer does that morality derived from religion should not be permitted to shape those laws should they carry the argument.
I believe it impossible to completely divorce one's values from the creation of law. On the other hand, I believe that all laws should be based on secular grounds. For instance, even if murder is wrong, according to the Bible, laws against murder should not be created solely because the Bible says so, because it's irrational. Nonetheless, murder is also wrong, according to secular humanist reasoning, because it goes against principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. In other words, a firm line is drawn when one's freedom to act infringes on another's rights. This is where religious arguments against gay rights and gay marriage fall apart; there is no secular reasoning to support discrimination, as all of it is "irrationally" religious in nature; and any attempts at justifying these prejudices in the secular arena have flat-out failed, due to the fact any such arguments have collapsed under the weight of logic and the scientific method applied against them. In other words, arguments in favor of discrimination against gays is as nonsensical as young earth creationism.

On the other hand, I have privately formulated arguments for and against abortion on the basis of secular humanist logic, and that's where this issue gets all the more difficult. That's why I wish for these subjects to be treated separately; they are inherently different.
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Old 10-13-2007, 01:17 PM   #43
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
Same-sex marriage is absolutely being quarreled over in legislature. That's why it's such an issue! Many conservatives are trying to put through bills banning same-sex marriage. Many liberals want to legalize civil unions.
Well, that's a good point. Of coarse it's hardly just conservatives given some of the states in which these measures have passed. But most of these bills are more about protecting states from having to recognize same-sex marriage by the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution simply because 5 or 7 judges in another state suddenly "discover" such a right in their own state constitution.

Even the most ardent supporter of same-sex marriage should recognize that "the Law of the land" should not be formed in that manner.

As for your and Melon's other point, the 14th amendment and "Equal Protection" could be used as an argument for civil unions but not, IMO, marriage.
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Old 10-13-2007, 01:19 PM   #44
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Originally posted by INDY500
As for your and Melon's other point, the 14th amendment and "Equal Protection" could be used as an argument for civil unions but not, IMO, marriage.
Why not?
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Old 10-13-2007, 01:24 PM   #45
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Originally posted by INDY500
But most of these bills are more about protecting states from having to recognize same-sex marriage by the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution simply because 5 or 7 judges in another state suddenly "discover" such a right in their own state constitution.

Even the most ardent supporter of same-sex marriage should recognize that "the Law of the land" should not be formed in that manner.

As for your and Melon's other point, the 14th amendment and "Equal Protection" could be used as an argument for civil unions but not, IMO, marriage.
So, you don't think that it's a civil rights issue? Because if you do, I don't see how you can state that.

And for the last part of your post, I'll join Martha in saying, "Why not?"
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Old 10-13-2007, 01:30 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
As for your and Melon's other point, the 14th amendment and "Equal Protection" could be used as an argument for civil unions but not, IMO, marriage.
That's not a valid argument, because it has already been established that "separate but equal" is an invalid interpretation of the 14th amendment. In other words, what you arguing in favor of here is the equivalent reasoning in favor of racial segregation.

The proper remedy, in accordance with the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, is to put everyone in the same category under the same name. That is, everyone would have a "marriage" under the law or everyone would have a "civil union" under the law. Putting heterosexuals under "marriage" and homosexuals under "civil unions" is a "separate but equal" category that is prohibited on the basis of the 14th amendment.

Of course, the larger reality is that "civil unions" aren't even "equal" to marriage under the law, so that ultimately makes this argument against separate classification even stronger; not to mention that I find the name to be completely insulting.
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Old 10-13-2007, 01:48 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Just don't argue as A_Wanderer does that morality derived from religion should not be permitted to shape those laws should they carry the argument.
I still want to see those "secular" arguments you speak of...
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Old 10-13-2007, 01:59 PM   #48
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


So, you don't think that it's a civil rights issue? Because if you do, I don't see how you can state that.

And for the last part of your post, I'll join Martha in saying, "Why not?"
Since this is a campaign thread and not a same-sex marriage thread, I'll give you a quote from the presidential candidate that best shares my view on the issue.

"My personal belief is that marriage is between one man and one woman, for life."
--Mike Huckabee

Feel free to do the same.
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Old 10-13-2007, 02:02 PM   #49
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Way to avoid
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Old 10-13-2007, 02:05 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
"My personal belief is that marriage is between one man and one woman, for life."
--Mike Huckabee

Feel free to do the same.
Ah yes...nothing like supporting the status quo just for the hell of it.
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Old 10-13-2007, 02:08 PM   #51
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Originally posted by melon


Ah yes...nothing like supporting the status quo just for the hell of it.
Which candidate said that?
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Old 10-13-2007, 02:08 PM   #52
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Emphasize on "My personal belief".

Everybody is allowed to have a personal belief, but it's an entirely different thing when it comes to legislation.
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Old 10-13-2007, 02:15 PM   #53
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Originally posted by INDY500


Which candidate said that?
If memory serves right "status quo" was your very first argument against gay marriage in FYM, but we all know that's just an avoidance of the real reasonings.
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Old 10-13-2007, 02:16 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Which candidate said that?
My point that it's easy to dig in your heels and not want anything to change when it doesn't affect you at all. So if you're a lifelong "good conservative," there's no need to rock the boat when locking all the homosexuals back into the closet and forgetting that they ever existed doesn't change your life one iota and allows you to keep all your conservative friendships happy and intact.

I have a hunch that has a lot to do with your opinion on this subject.
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Old 10-13-2007, 02:17 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


Since this is a campaign thread and not a same-sex marriage thread, I'll give you a quote from the presidential candidate that best shares my view on the issue.

"My personal belief is that marriage is between one man and one woman, for life."
--Mike Huckabee

Feel free to do the same.
An amazing cop-out!

Let's run that through the translator: "I have no real reasons other than Biblical reasons, and I know those won't fly, so I'll just quote someone else."
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:04 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
"My personal belief is that marriage is between one man and one woman, for life."
--Mike Huckabee


but if you go onto Huckabee's website and actually read his position, it's thoroughly nonsensical and illogical.

here:

[q]The late Cardinal O'Connor decried a domestic partnership law (which provided that all couples who signed up, whether heterosexual or homosexual, would be treated the same as married couples) as legislating that "marriage doesn't matter." I agree with the Cardinal that marriage does matter, I would add that nothing in our society matters more. Our true strength doesn't come from our military or our gross national product, it comes from our families. What's the point of keeping the terrorists at bay in the Middle East if we can't keep decline and decadence at bay here at home? The growing number of children born out of wedlock and the rise in no-fault divorce have been a disaster for our society. They have pushed many women and children into poverty and onto the welfare, food stamp, and Medicaid rolls. These children are more likely to drop out of school and end up in low-paying, dead-end jobs, they are more likely to get involved with drugs and crime, they are more likely to have children out of wedlock or get divorced themselves someday, continuing the unhappy cycle.

[/q]


i'm being blamed for drugs, poverty, and terrorism. it makes no sense whatsoever, and so, in order to gussy up our homophobia (or, i'd argue, the homophobia of our constituents), we either toss every issue as one of "decadance" or "decline" and make these incredibly wild leaps of logic, or we say, "it's my personal belief."

and, yes, the Democrats do this too. the difference, however, is at least they want me to have dinner, even if it means i have to sit at a different table. the Republicans would rather i stand outside in the rain and go hungry. for NO OTHER REASON than they don't like me for reasons they can't justify or explain.
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:28 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


An amazing cop-out!

Let's run that through the translator: "I have no real reasons other than Biblical reasons, and I know those won't fly, so I'll just quote someone else."
By all means, feel free to rummage through the archives. Here's a few but I'm sure there were more.

http://forum.interference.com/t160707.html

http://forum.interference.com/t161767.html
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:32 PM   #58
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Yeah. Old gay-marriage threads.
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:47 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




but if you go onto Huckabee's website and actually read his position, it's thoroughly nonsensical and illogical.

here:

[q]The late Cardinal O'Connor decried a domestic partnership law (which provided that all couples who signed up, whether heterosexual or homosexual, would be treated the same as married couples) as legislating that "marriage doesn't matter." I agree with the Cardinal that marriage does matter, I would add that nothing in our society matters more. Our true strength doesn't come from our military or our gross national product, it comes from our families. What's the point of keeping the terrorists at bay in the Middle East if we can't keep decline and decadence at bay here at home? The growing number of children born out of wedlock and the rise in no-fault divorce have been a disaster for our society. They have pushed many women and children into poverty and onto the welfare, food stamp, and Medicaid rolls. These children are more likely to drop out of school and end up in low-paying, dead-end jobs, they are more likely to get involved with drugs and crime, they are more likely to have children out of wedlock or get divorced themselves someday, continuing the unhappy cycle.

[/q]


i'm being blamed for drugs, poverty, and terrorism. it makes no sense whatsoever, and so, in order to gussy up our homophobia (or, i'd argue, the homophobia of our constituents), we either toss every issue as one of "decadance" or "decline" and make these incredibly wild leaps of logic, or we say, "it's my personal belief."

and, yes, the Democrats do this too. the difference, however, is at least they want me to have dinner, even if it means i have to sit at a different table. the Republicans would rather i stand outside in the rain and go hungry. for NO OTHER REASON than they don't like me for reasons they can't justify or explain.
Think he's addressing the divorce rate and it's effects, however, the tie in at the beginning is that there is some evidence that legalizing same-sex marriage has the unintended consequence of lowering the overall marriage rate.
That was debated in a past thread as well.
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Old 10-13-2007, 04:03 PM   #60
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And it's bogus.
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