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Old 11-07-2008, 05:57 AM   #921
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Emotions are what separates liberals from conservatives. Clearly, even if both understood, which is doubtful at this point, I'm not entirely sure if they'd care. Ideology is greater than people, and the ends justify the means.
I think you need to clarify that statement, opposition to abortion seems to be exceptionally emotional.
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:00 AM   #922
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I dare you to invite me.
Currently, this could never happen, thanks to people like yourself.

Oh, the irony.

Way to miss the entire point of his post.
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:12 AM   #923
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Currently, this could never happen, thanks to people like yourself.

Oh, the irony.

Way to miss the entire point of his post.
insults aside,

why don't we let irvine answer that-instead of you.

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Old 11-07-2008, 07:25 AM   #924
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I think you need to clarify that statement, opposition to abortion seems to be exceptionally emotional.
Nope. Not one bit. Christian tradition declares that life begins at conception (never mind that St. Thomas Aquinas, probably the most influential theologian in Christian tradition ahead of St. Augustine of Hippo and St. Paul argued, essentially, that the soul entered the fetus at three months). For that reason alone, many Christians are perfectly ready to force women to have children against their will, even in cases of rape or incest.

Ideology before people.
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:35 AM   #925
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All people can be scum when they need to be, I don't think the assertion that liberals/progressives/leftists are inherently more caring or empathetic than conservatives is accurate, it is probably more a question of definition than anything else (is a devout anti-abortionist who thinks that the state shouldn't intrude into peoples lives and legislate against abortion not a conservative). I wouldn't disagree that anti-gay reactionaries would prefer you didn't exist and that their worldview doesn't gel with principles of equal treatment under the law.
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:50 AM   #926
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so what do we do?

we continuously lose on this issue at the ballot box, often big-time.

granted, in nearly any other year, and certainly without the massive influence of the Mormon church, Prop 8 would not have passed.

but it did. the campaign obviously worked.

how do we fight back? we are not winning this argument, even though there is no argument on the other side. how and why are we so easily defeated?

anyone who believes in the basic dignity and equality of gay citizens needs to ask themselves these questions.
We must learn from the struggles of the the American civil rights movement and that of the Jewish struggle for freedom and dignity over the last 2,000 years. We can also learn from César Chávez and other labor organizers, who fought for living wages and benefits for the working class.

In other words, as much as a moment like this is a time for lament, we can earnestly say that our struggle is not without precedent. What it does require--and I think that this is something that the last 2-3 generations have little discipline for, in particular--is dedication and hard work. That means long, loud, and consistent protests, in the tradition of Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. The gay community also has, according to the financial world, a disproportionately high percentage of saved income, which is sizeable and our spending is very noticed. Perhaps it would also be necessary to couple those protests with a long and protracted nationwide economic boycott of all non-essential goods. Chávez's grape strike took five years to resolve in their favor; could we have the discipline to go that long too?

In short, what the gay community needs to do, more than ever, is fight and fight legally. No more conceding religion to the Religious Right; I've argued repeatedly and consistently why their views on religion are little more than what Mortimer Adler would call "superstition," at least, and absolutely wrong, at most. Their interpretation of law is also blatantly wrong. Their interpretation of the First Amendment and freedom of speech is laughably ignorant. They do, of course, have every right to believe what they believe, no matter how wrong it is. However, the gay community has every right to challenge them and point out how wrong they are every step of the way, meaning that they do not have a constitutional right, as they would like to imply, to have unchallenged beliefs because they are self-described "religious." Not only do they not have a monopoly on God, but, as far as I see it, God is nowhere near their belief system. The gay community needs to understand and believe this too, and I believe it will be much easier to be assertive against them.

The real question is whether the community is ready for the sacrifice required to do this, and whether a true leader in the gay community--our Gandhi, our MLK, Jr.--can emerge. The current "leaders" are--I'm sorry to say--pretty much little more than spineless whores for the Democratic Party apparatus, who continue to string us along with patronizing and unfulfilled vague promises of "more rights," but not all rights. This is the party, however, that passed and signed the federal Defense of Marriage Act in the 1990s. Why should we trust anything they have to say at their word? Undoubtedly, the Democratic Party is likely to be the more receptive party of the two to our message, but, even at that, I do not think they take us or our struggle seriously at all. What I can say for sure, at the very least, is that this is not going to change, as long as we sit back and do nothing.
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:56 AM   #927
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All people can be scum when they need to be, I don't think the assertion that liberals/progressives/leftists are inherently more caring or empathetic than conservatives is accurate, it is probably more a question of definition than anything else (is a devout anti-abortionist who thinks that the state shouldn't intrude into peoples lives and legislate against abortion not a conservative). I wouldn't disagree that anti-gay reactionaries would prefer you didn't exist and that their worldview doesn't gel with principles of equal treatment under the law.
The devout anti-abortionist who believes that the state shouldn't intrude probably doesn't exist. Nonetheless, they would likely fall under the banner of "pro-choice" then. I'd say most pro-choice individuals are personally against abortion too, and would likely discourage family and friends from having one, if asked.

I think the reality is that liberals understand nuance and context, whereas nuance and context are irrelevant in the essentialist view of the conservative world.
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:04 AM   #928
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Gay rights or votes, can you have both?
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:13 AM   #929
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Gay rights or votes, can you have both?
Did the African American civil rights leaders care about the political popularity of their rights, or were they more concerned about reclaiming their inalienable rights guaranteed to them by natural law (according to Locke) and the Constitution? Likewise, the gay rights movement must have the same perspective. Those like the oblivious mail carrier who voted "Yes" on Prop. 8 out of total ambivalence are not unlike many white Americans on race by the early 1960s. Sitting back and doing nothing is not going to change any minds.
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:27 AM   #930
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My first instinct was to label you a Democrat, if there were other parties vying for gay votes it could force change, the Democrats enjoy the luxury of being the lesser of two evils.
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Old 11-07-2008, 08:50 AM   #931
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In short, what the gay community needs to do, more than ever, is fight and fight legally.
100% correct.

The gay community in CA made the mistake of counting on emotion and community leaders like Ellen and other celebrities to highlight the issue and donate the $. What you need is to get yourself the best civil rights and constitutional lawyers and erode bigotry one step at a time.

Despite some of the usual hysteria from the right, gay marriage in Canada got legalized with fairly little fanfare in the end. And I believe it was because of the way it was done, it was a fight that was fought on the right battleground. Of course, there will be a poster here who will now come in and insult Canada, saying it's irrelevant how we did it, but nevertheless, it's the right approach.
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:12 AM   #932
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i suppose i might have even been more willing to work hard at being straight, and maybe dated more women, and maybe even married one.

because, hey, what a lucky girl that would have been, no?

is this what people want?
It's what I GOT.

In my opinion this is one of the most important points that can be made. If my ex-husband had been able to live openly and without fear his entire life he wouldn't have had to try to hide himself for seven years in a straight marriage - a marriage that produced children. I used to be very angry at him - and then I started thinking about it. He's not the only one there is to blame.

He now lives happily - and openly - with his longtime partner in San Francisco. They were married in October and I am heartbroken to see that this joy is being taken away from them. We are closer now than we ever were. He and his partner are my family, and the greatest gifts I can give as a mother are tolerance and acceptance. I am proud to be able to do this. Shame on everyone else.
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:27 AM   #933
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From Beegee: the greatest gifts I can give as a mother are tolerance and acceptance. I am proud to be able to do this.

Well said. It's like chipping away at the stone....each generation becomes a little more tolerant and accepting and ultimately change will come. Let's just hope sooner rather than later. The first ballot initiative in California about gay marriage passed with 61% of the vote. This time it was little more than majority. The time will come and it will be a great day. Until then, in the immortal words of Steven Tyler - "chip away, chip away at the stone...."

To IRVINE511 - loved your post. My heart goes out to you and others who have struggled with this. Please know that there are people out there and in here - at interference - who embrace you for being who you are and who will not judge you based on your lifestyle.
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:32 AM   #934
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What business is it of the state to be interfering in your lives, or for that matter my life whatever I choose to do, sexuality must rest firmly in the domain of individual responsibility, and given that the state sanctions heterosexual marriages regardless of their stability or desirability it must do so for gay relationships, out of the principles of individual rights and equal treatment under the law.

Personally I am comfortable with a panoply of sexuality, its interesting, I just wish that governments would cease interfering in the modes of gratification of citizens and get down to the business of guaranteeing security without compromising liberty. I agree wholeheartedly that one must hold socially legislating individuals with a high degree of contempt and actively fight their agenda. Social liberalisation is by no means inevitable, those that fight for it deserve respect and active support.

I feel that whatever political position I hold (socially liberal, staunchly secularist with a streak of cosmopolitanism with a noted lack of economic insight) it falls on the right side of individual liberties, but its probably a minority position at the moment.
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:41 AM   #935
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It boggles my mind that the founding principle of America is "All Men Are Created Equal"

I guess it only applies to white straight men between 35 and 60...
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:52 AM   #936
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It's a not a voice issue.

"wrote" is the past tense
"written" is the past participle used with "have"
martha, yes, I think you're right. Now here's how I could have used "wrote."

Perhaps same-sex marriage advocates should lay off the rote accusations of "hate" and "bigotry" whenever they meet any resistance as it obviously does not serve them well.
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:56 AM   #937
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martha, yes, I think you're right. Now here's how I could have used "wrote."

Perhaps same-sex marriage advocates should lay off the rote accusations of "hate" and "bigotry" whenever they meet any resistance as it obviously does not serve them well.
Or they could use them when appropriate, such as now.

Indy, you're a bigot.
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Old 11-07-2008, 09:58 AM   #938
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Perhaps same-sex marriage advocates should lay off the rote accusations of "hate" and "bigotry" whenever they meet any resistance as it obviously does not serve them well.


i see.

i understand such accusations aren't necessarily the most persuasive arguments when getting people to confront their own prejudices, but are such labels incorrect?

further, you'll only see those charges in here. the "No" campaign labeled no one a bigot, no one talked about hate. they talked about fairness and equality under the law and how everyone deserves rights.

so you'll have to make a distinction here, INDY. you may be absolutely right in pointing out the fact that i think that you are bigoted against homosexuals isn't going to persuade you that you actually are bigoted against homosexuals. however, what i do in here is not a reflection of any statewide campaign. so to extrapolate from me is a bit of a stretch.
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Old 11-07-2008, 10:01 AM   #939
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I saw some of O'Reilly last night when I was channel surfing and he said that MA is a fascist state for having gay marriage, that it was forced upon the citizens of MA and they weren't allowed to vote on it. He also had a Republican woman on who supports gay marriage, I can't remember her name.
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Old 11-07-2008, 10:11 AM   #940
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martha, yes, I think you're right. Now here's how I could have used "wrote."

Perhaps same-sex marriage advocates should lay off the rote accusations of "hate" and "bigotry" whenever they meet any resistance as it obviously does not serve them well.

Nope. Still incorrect. "wrote" and "rote" are two different words with two different origins.

Try again.
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