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Old 11-06-2008, 03:11 PM   #861
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FWIW

Sign the Re-open Proposition 8 for California Petition

Asking these people to explain why gays are a threat to families is like asking a KKK member why they hate non-whites

Logic just goes out the window, it's just bigotry.

Either that or they're just in the closet themselves and it's self-loathing.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:15 PM   #862
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so what i'm getting is that people think that their children can be influenced to "choose" being gay. and that this is one way of stopping said influence.

correct?
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:18 PM   #863
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so what i'm getting is that people think that their children can be influenced to "choose" being gay. and that this is one way of stopping said influence.

correct?


What I don't understand is that if same-sex marriage would supposedly influence kids to "become" gay, wouldn't heterosexual marriage have the same amount of influence?
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:19 PM   #864
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so what i'm getting is that people think that their children can be influenced to "choose" being gay. and that this is one way of stopping said influence.

correct?
In my humble opinion, yes. How else can it threaten families? If you're born gay, well that's the end of that debate, since two people of the same-sex getting married wouldn't have any effect whatsoever. But if homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, then this poses a problem, as the option of marrying a same-sex partner may entice people to go that route.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:24 PM   #865
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so what i'm getting is that people think that their children can be influenced to "choose" being gay. and that this is one way of stopping said influence.

correct?
No, I think their fear is that children will think it's OK if they ARE gay, obviously it's better to put them through years of denial and self-loathing, not to mention the ever-so-effective straightness-therapy programs.....
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:25 PM   #866
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i will say that a greater cultural acceptance of homosexuality particularly when i was a teenager through the 1990s did lead me to be more accepting of myself than i would have been had i been born decades earlier. i mean, coming out is a long, hard process, but it was certainly easier to do now than it would have been decades ago.

i suppose i might have even been more willing to work hard at being straight, and maybe dated more women, and maybe even married one.

because, hey, what a lucky girl that would have been, no?

is this what people want?

please, straights, everyone is so nice and supportive to me and of me in my life, help me out here. i don't know how you people *really* think and talk when i'm not around.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:26 PM   #867
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INDY will not be addressing any of your points, he's going to continue to state why it's great that Proposition 8 passed and post more articles that talk about the victory while ignoring the actual issue.

Nathan will not be addressing any of your points, he will simply quote them and say that it's complicated and that, if you used any language that insinuates he could be a bigot, you are in fact the bigot.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:26 PM   #868
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wow, how discouraging to know that the Prop passed, yet I am not surprised, half my neighborhood was covered in the yellow signs, and at every freeway entrance for the last week it seemed like there was an agglomeration of people parading with these signs. Uhhh, even my parents where so enraged at the thought of gays marrying, then again my mother is convinced that Obama is a Muslim and/or the Antichrist. Seriously, the last couple months have put into perspective how little in common I have with my family. When it was announced Obama won, I was overwhelmed with joy and a huge sigh of relief, even watching people's reactions in Harlem & Chicago made me emotional. But waking up the next day to learn that Prop 8 passed was such a crummy feeling, just the idea of a minority's rights being left for the majority to decide is enraging. especially having to argue with my boyfriend why it's wrong and his response being "why do you care if you're not gay?". Grrrrrrr, it's about rights, basic human rights, for people regardless of color, race, religion etc...Sad day for Californians.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:29 PM   #869
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wow, how discouraging to know that the Prop passed, yet I am not surprised, half my neighborhood was covered in the yellow signs, and at every freeway entrance for the last week it seemed like there was an agglomeration of people parading with these signs. Uhhh, even my parents where so enraged at the thought of gays marrying, then again my mother is convinced that Obama is a Muslim and/or the Antichrist. Seriously, the last couple months have put into perspective how little in common I


why? what were their arguments? what enraged your parents?

no judgments. i really want to know what was being said. i want to know the exact words.

i really do.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:30 PM   #870
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It's all about the children.
It's not about the children at all. It's about adults transferring their fears and ignorance. We've just recently "outed" my sister-in-law to my daughters. So they have not grown up seeing gay couples all around them. But when we first discussed this with them, they never said anything other than "Oh, ok" and I bet any other child would say the same if the issue had never been addressed before and was treated as no big deal but just part of life.

It's the fear of adults that took the fun out of Halloween and turned it into Harvest Festivals at our school where kids can't wear costumes, it's adults who wanted the name of the Tampa Bay Devil Rays changed to the Rays. I'm probably rambling here, but I really don't think the issue is about what the children WILL think, it's what adults WANT them to think.

I don't think we'll ever be able to understand the pro prop 8 opinion, because it's based on a fear that we just don't share and will never understand.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:31 PM   #871
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What I don't understand is that if same-sex marriage would supposedly influence kids to "become" gay, wouldn't heterosexual marriage have the same amount of influence?
Oh, you're being to rational.....
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:34 PM   #872
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I don't know if anyone has said something about this, but I just thought I'd throw it out there :

In October 2007, Arnold Schwarzenegger vetoed AB 43, because of the people's vote on prop 22 in 2000.
A year later he's publicly associated with the anti-Proposition 8 campaign.
So is he now in favour of same sex marriage?
Clearly he wants the voters to decide on the matter.
Do you think he thought the outcome would have been different?
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:35 PM   #873
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i think Schwarzenegger's silence, and Obama's silence, was not a good thing. i think their support might have made the difference.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:40 PM   #874
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according to my mother "the only reason gays want to get married is so that they can adopt kids so that they can make them gay since they can't reproduce"
yep, don't ask for the logic cause there is none. Even more embarrassing to reveal is that she told me she went for an hour on Sunday evening to church cause there was a large praying group so that Prop8 would pass.
I think of myself as a Christian but nowhere near my parents' version of one. Actually, it's to the point where it's an embarrassing to even say I am one. Cause you know voting Democrat is siding with the devil.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:42 PM   #875
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Oh, you're being to rational.....
I know, silly me bringing actual logic into this argument.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:44 PM   #876
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according to my mother "the only reason gays want to get married is so that they can adopt kids so that they can make them gay since they can't reproduce"



does your mother know any gay people? what do you think might make a difference in her thinking?

i ask because it's obvious that appeals to basic fairness and equal treatment under the law, as well as pointing out the clear parallels to other civil rights movements in the past, aren't working terribly well.

we need to go about this in a different way.

i know that we are right. and i know that they are wrong. and i want to find out the best way to convince them that we are right, and they are wrong.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:46 PM   #877
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i think Schwarzenegger's silence, and Obama's silence, was not a good thing. i think their support might have made the difference.
The Bay Area Reporter Online | Breaking news: <br>Prop 8 opponents concede

The No on Prop 8 campaign today conceded, calling the passage of a constitutional amendment in California banning same-sex marriage "heartbreaking."

In a conference call with reporters November 6, members of the No on 8 executive committee fielded questions about lessons learned from the campaign. With 100 percent of precincts reporting, Prop 8 passed with 52.5 percent of the vote, compared with 47.5 percent of those voting against it, unofficial results from the secretary of state showed.

"This is a very disappointing moment," said Kate Kendell, a No on 8 executive committee member and executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights.

She predicted that same-sex marriage would one day be legal across the country, not just in California, but acknowledged "that day is not today."

"I think this is a temporary defeat," echoed Lorri Jean, an executive committee member and CEO of the LA Gay and Lesbian Center.

Jean and others defended their campaign, but said that the Yes on 8 campaign's last-minute mailer showing Barack Obama and urging a yes vote on Prop 8 was devastating, particularly in the African American community. While Obama does not support same-sex marriage he did oppose Prop 8. The mailer showed Obama with quotes he has said about same-sex marriage, with a "Vote yes on Prop 8" banner at the bottom. The Yes on 8 side also used robo calls featuring Obama stating he does not favor same-sex marriage.

The No on 8 side countered with its own robo call featuring Obama saying he opposed Prop 8.

Exit polls showed seven out of 10 African American voters cast ballots in favor of Prop 8.

Andrea Shorter, who led And Marriage for All, a group of mostly black LGBT and allied groups, said more work needed to be done in the African American community.

"You look at the Yes on 8 campaign going after certain segments of the community – and capitalize and exploit churchgoers, using children and [churches] tax-exempt status – and we have work to do, no doubt about it," she said.

"For me it's a little hard to believe it's that high," she added, referring to the exit poll data.

Jean laid the blame squarely on the Yes side's mailer, pointing out that the October 31 Field Poll showed African American voters were pretty evenly split on Prop 8. The mailer began arriving that day.

"What happened? More lies and deception," she said. "People were misled. We didn't have enough time to respond to that."

Jean and others on the call said that No on 8 would be doing an analysis of the campaign to see what other lessons could be learned.

Kendell said that No on 8 "probably could have done better" among African Americans and communities of color.

"We underestimated the other side's ads and [people] heard Barack Obama's voice and then were told to vote yes," Kendell said, adding that people "hear that and it gives cover" to vote yes.

Kendell said one thing that was learned was that in the African American community more personal conversations are needed with black LGBT folks telling their stories.

"It can't be done by white leaders," she added. "I think that's a real lesson learned."

But Kendell said many in the African American community stood with the LGBT community.

"There is not a division between the LGBT community and African American leadership," she said. "There are alliances to be made. Our challenge is to deepen those alliances."

The campaign was asked why it didn't use Obama's opposition more forcefully, as well as Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who also opposed Prop 8.

Kendell said that No on 8 "pushed out" Obama's opposition to Prop 8 and it was "something we used in the final ad." Regarding the governor, she said he was embroiled in a monthlong budget battle and that No on 8 also used his opposition to Prop 8 in the final ad.


Few gays on TV

The speakers also were asked about the dearth of gays and lesbians from the No on 8 television ads, a criticism that cropped up even as the campaign was under way, with some local gays decrying No on 8's early commercials as lackluster.

"Generally, I think lesbian and gay people were everywhere in this campaign," said Geoff Kors, an executive committee member. He said gays and lesbians were in video clips that ran on YouTube, and that same-sex couples who were getting married throughout the summer and fall often were featured in the news.

"For the TV ads, the messages were extensively tested and were effective," he said. "The other side had a lot more money early on."

The campaign also acknowledged that Yes on 8's first TV ad, featuring San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom bellowing that same-sex marriage is happening "whether you like it or not" greatly changed the dynamics of the race.

"There is no doubt we saw our support erode," Kendell said, calling the Yes on 8 advertising "an onslaught."

The issue of schoolchildren being taught about same-sex marriage in public schools also was tough for No on 8 to knock down. Kors noted that the TV ad with state Superintendent of Public Instruction Jack O'Connell, in which he called Yes on 8's ads "shameful," was never supposed to be an ad.

"This campaign combated as muscularly as we could," Kendell said. She also said that another lesson learned was the importance of having conversations about "what really happens in school."

"I think those messages really did hurt us," she said.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:48 PM   #878
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I'm really trying to hold back from going on a profanity laced rant against people like INDY and Nathan.

At least, please, man up, the two of you, and actually discuss the issues people are bringing up instead of shying away from discussion.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:49 PM   #879
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I think of myself as a Christian but nowhere near my parents' version of one. Actually, it's to the point where it's an embarrassing to even say I am one.
Don't be afraid to say you're Christian. Just say that you're practicing the tolerance, love and acceptance part.
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:51 PM   #880
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I'm really trying to hold back from going on a profanity laced rant against people like INDY and Nathan.

At least, please, man up, the two of you, and actually discuss the issues people are bringing up instead of shying away from discussion.


to their credit, they have put forth arguments that go beyond the superficial.

i disagree with their arguments and find them little more than rationalizations, but at least they have come forth and argued an unpopular position in FYM.
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