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Old 10-10-2008, 02:28 PM   #281
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Hey guess what, I feel tribute bands should be banned. Many agree with me, should we make it law?
This is, quite possibly, the most awesome example you've ever posted.
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Old 10-10-2008, 02:28 PM   #282
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Why is it always fear and lies?
Once again, you've completely over-reacted. That commercial against Prop 8 really was full of lies. Which creates fear. Nothing in that commercial was true.

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Why cant you accept that many feel that marriage should be between a man and a woman.
Why can't you accept that blacks and white shouldn't be allowed to be enrolled in the same schools?


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Apparently, a person is not entitled to have an opinion and express it unless it agrees with the liberal side of things.
You can have all the opinions you want. So far, you still have a right to express them. As do I.
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Old 10-10-2008, 02:42 PM   #283
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This is, quite possibly, the most awesome example you've ever posted.
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Old 10-10-2008, 02:50 PM   #284
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That's not it at all. It's the fact that "many feel that marriage should be between a man and woman" is not a reason. You can FEEL that way all you want, but why should your feelings get in the way of equality? What logical or legal reason do you have? None. I've never seen one secular answer, in fact I haven't seen any strong religious answers either but that's another thread.

Hey guess what, I feel tribute bands should be banned. Many agree with me, should we make it law?

Why would anyone want to ban tribute bands? Let me see, maybe they have a prejudice against them...

If you can't give me a logical reason for something then I'm lead to believe you don't want to provide equality for personal selfish reasons... therefore bigotry.
I think it is a pretty poor example, but nice effort. Go ahead and get a majority to vote to band tribute bands. Go for it.

By the responses, it seems it's assumed (i figured it would happen, that why I did not say anything about my position) that I am for this Prop. Fact is I cannot decide. There is a side of me that feel that marriage should be defined as 1 man and 1 woman. I have many reason why I think that it is a legit belief. There is the other side that feel like we should let people who are homosexual marry whomever they love. They should be able to share their lives with that person in the same way as my wife and I. What really is the difference between two gay people who are living together and sharing their lives as if married and actually being married? When it comes down to it, it's just a piece of paper and some rights like joint property ownership, etc. Passing this prop is not going to stop homosexuality or people who are gay from falling in love and wanting to spend their life with their partner. From that standpoint, what the difference, vote it down and let them be happy together.

I'm still sorting through what I will do but come Nov 4th I will vote my conscience.

My point was ripping people for wanting to vote yes is stupid. This vote is about giving rights and respect to same-sex couples. I think its fair to respect the people who don't agree. You dont have to like their choice, as they dont yours, but both side can be a bit more respectful.
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Old 10-10-2008, 02:55 PM   #285
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You know what, I don't even agree with the whole concept of doing this state by state. Something like this has significant effect on how we are seen, as a people, by the world at large. We as a country should either have the integrity and fortitude to allow equal opportunity for all, including gay marriage, or not have it. When you allow this state to have it this way and that state to have it that way, it creates a schizophrenic identity for the country, because this part of it allows equal rights and that part doesn't. I've never understood the devotion many have to 'state's rights'. Something is either bad enough to be illegal or it isn't. Saying something is illegal in states A, B, C, D, and E, but legal in states F, G, H, I, and J only makes one question why it is illegal in the first group of states if it truly isn't bad enough to be illegal in every state. We all know that when politicians say, 'I'll leave that up to the states to decide', it really means, 'I don't have the balls to take a position on this issue one way or the other because I'd piss too many people off either way'. If we're going to let the people's will be heard, at least we should do it nationally. Then if the electorate did the right thing and voted to allow gay marriage, we could be seen by the world as a nation that allows equality for all.

And as far as affirmative action is concerned, I don't particularly support it, but I think it might have have been rejected for the wrong reasons - i.e. people not liking the idea of more African-American people being accepted at better schools and being given higher professional positions. The right reason to reject affirmative action is because it is reverse discrimination. Forcing someone to put more African-Americans in their school or business does not make racism go away. We should be working to get RID of peoples' prejudices altogether, not forcing them to accept African-Americans in their schools or businesses DESPITE their racial prejudices. It is akin to treating a symptom rather than a cause.
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Old 10-10-2008, 02:58 PM   #286
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Why can't you accept that blacks and white shouldn't be allowed to be enrolled in the same schools?
That kind of lame argument could be made in so many ways.
Why cant a man marry multiple wives? Once again, you have jumped down my throat, not knowing my position on this issues and not responding to what I said. I threw out the bait by not saying anything about my position. I knew you would react this way. It's exactly what I was referring to. The attitude of, "If you dont agree with me, I'm coming out swinging!!" does nothing but push the sides further apart. No wonder there is such a divide between the left and the right. I may not agree with your opinions but I respect you for them. Martha, I even sent you a private IM stating that several weeks ago. I never got a response. Oh well
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Old 10-10-2008, 02:59 PM   #287
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I haven't heard a single good, decent and believable reason for why gays should be treated as something other than equals in terms of marriage and all other rights. All of them come down to homosexual bigotry, religious beliefs or some combination thereof. In other words, things that have no place in our secular legal system.

Thankfully you guys are fighting a losing battle. Time waits for no man.
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:05 PM   #288
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I think it is a pretty poor example, but nice effort. Go ahead and get a majority to vote to band tribute bands. Go for it.
Well you missed my point and proved my point with one post.

My point was to create a bad example because banning tribute bands and gay marriage is the same as far as they both don't have any logical opposition. NONE. Feelings aren't good enough.

But you proved my point in the sense that the only reason why there isn't gay marriage yet is because a majority still have some prejudice about homosexuality. This will soon pass and gay marriage will no longer be an issue, we'll just ask ourselves why it took so long. And conservatives will ask themselves why they've been on the wrong side of history with every social issue in America's history.

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What really is the difference between two gay people who are living together and sharing their lives as if married and actually being married?
One word: rights.
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:08 PM   #289
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Why cant a man marry multiple wives?
Don't go down this path, it just weakens everything you say...
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:18 PM   #290
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If we're going to let the people's will be heard, at least we should do it nationally.
The US has no provision for national ballot initiatives, though, because we don't actually have a national electorate.
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:18 PM   #291
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One word: rights.
That is what I said in the very next line that you neglected to quote.
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:20 PM   #292
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Don't go down this path, it just weakens everything you say...
As does what Martha said about blacks and whites. You are confirming my point.
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:22 PM   #293
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The US has no provision for national ballot initiatives, though, because we don't actually have a national electorate.
Maybe we should.
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:25 PM   #294
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That is what I said in the very next line that you neglected to quote.
Yes, I realize you did, but I'm emphasizing how important that is...
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:26 PM   #295
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Passing this prop is not going to stop homosexuality or people who are gay from falling in love and wanting to spend their life with their partner.
You're absolutely right. It won't stop people from falling in love and wanting to spend their life with their partner. However, it does prevent those who want to get married from actually getting married. And could potentially bar those couples from equal protection under the law. (The wording as far as I know does not address civil unions and how they relate to marriages at all)
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:31 PM   #296
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As does what Martha said about blacks and whites. You are confirming my point.
No, it doesn't.

Civil rights and gay marriage are similar in the sense that you are providing the individual with the same rights as everyone else.

The argument for polygamy is something completely different. There is no individual right now that can sign in to multiple contracts of relationships. Not man, not woman, not black, not white, not gay, or not straight. So it's not about equality.
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:34 PM   #297
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You're absolutely right. It won't stop people from falling in love and wanting to spend their life with their partner. However, it does prevent those who want to get married from actually getting married. And could potentially bar those couples from equal protection under the law. (The wording as far as I know does not address civil unions and how they relate to marriages at all)
I was making the point more from the side of people opposed to it. It is not going to stop same-sex couples from doing everything married people do except getting married. I know the effect for the couple, I'm look at the result from the standpoint of those who who vote yes on this prop.

Question: How does everyone fell about civil unions that allow for the same rights as a married couple with out the "married" title?
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:36 PM   #298
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No, it doesn't.

Civil rights and gay marriage are similar in the sense that you are providing the individual with the same rights as everyone else.

The argument for polygamy is something completely different. There is no individual right now that can sign in to multiple contracts of relationships. Not man, not woman, not black, not white, not gay, or not straight. So it's not about equality.
I see your point. I dont agree with your assessment, but I can see how you are viewing it.
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:39 PM   #299
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What really is the difference between two gay people who are living together and sharing their lives as if married and actually being married? When it comes down to it, it's just a piece of paper and some rights like joint property ownership, etc.


why did you and your wife want to get married?
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Old 10-10-2008, 03:39 PM   #300
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Question: How does everyone fell about civil unions that allow for the same rights as a married couple with out the "married" title?
I have tried to understand for years now why it is that your attachment to a WORD is more important than the granting of marriage rights to your fellow citizens.

It really almost doesn't matter because much like the segregationists you're standing on the wrong side of history and there's nothing more to be said than that. Time marches forward.
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