South Dakota bans abortion. Full stop.

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nbcrusader said:


Really? I thought the majority of abortions were not related to the compelling reasons of rape, incest or harm to mother.



terminating an unwanted pregnancy is vastly different than viewing it as a form of birth control. i think it's amazingly insulting to women to think that they make frequent appointments with doctors to get themselves cleaned out, so to speak.

this applies, *especially*, with so-called late-term abortions.
 
Irvine511 said:
i understand LivLuv's post, but i think its' vastly crueler to essentially condemn a woman to death if having the baby will kill her.

I had posted some additional thoughts that I forgot to include in my original post, but then Interference kept freezing and apparently they never made it.

Anyway, what I said was that I DO full support early-term abortion in cases of rape, incest, or extreme danger to the mother or fetus. However, it seems that these cases are so few and far between, the main use of abortion is for convenience. As a woman, I support women's choices as far as birth control and the choice to get pregnant or not. I do not believe the "choice" extends so far that another potential life's right to live is compromised.
 
Irvine511 said:




you can. and so few people do.

i bet you'd find a more receptive audience if the pro-life/anti-choice movement as a whole removed religion from their rhetoric.

Yeah. But it should go BOTH ways. When I tell people I'm pro-life, they assume that because I'm religious, it's because I've been brainwashed. It's not about religion for me, it's about everyone's right to simply exist.
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:

As a woman, I support women's choices as far as birth control and the choice to get pregnant or not. I do not believe the "choice" extends so far that another potential life's right to live is compromised.

condoms can break and women can get pregnant while on the pill. the couple was being responsible about birth control but were one of the unlucky 1%. the woman did not choose to get pregnant. what now?
 
Se7en said:
condoms can break and women can get pregnant while on the pill. the couple was being responsible about birth control but were one of the unlucky 1%. the woman did not choose to get pregnant. what now?

I wonder what the probability of birth control not working AND a condom breaking AND a resulting pregnancy is......

The Pill alone is basically 100% effective, as long as you're taking the right dose and taking it at the same time every day. I know people who've gotten pregnant while supposedly on the Pill, but it turns out they were forgetting days or taking pills at random times each day.

Maybe women don't always choose to get pregnant, but they made choices with pregnancy as a possible outcome. If you're defending abortion on the grounds of it being a "choice", then you can't ignore the choice to engage in sexual activity that could lead to pregnancy.

I know someone who's almost in the situation you described. She actually wasn't using birth control pills at the time and they were using condoms while she was getting a new pill and the condom broke so she's having a baby and we're all very happy and excited, as is she. They realize they made a huge mistake, but luckily they're excited about having a baby.
 
My problem with the "in cases of rape" clause, is that how do you prove it?

Think about that.

Just what does it take to prove you were raped so you can get an abortion?
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:


Yeah. But it should go BOTH ways. When I tell people I'm pro-life, they assume that because I'm religious, it's because I've been brainwashed. It's not about religion for me, it's about everyone's right to simply exist.



i think that's a fair point, but it's the religious voices that speak the loudest, and few point to science as any sort of justification -- so it's easy for a secularist like me to wave them off as religious irrationality.

i am far, far more sympathetic to scientific pro-life/anti-choice arguments.
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:


I wonder what the probability of birth control not working AND a condom breaking AND a resulting pregnancy is......

The Pill alone is basically 100% effective, as long as you're taking the right dose and taking it at the same time every day. I know people who've gotten pregnant while supposedly on the Pill, but it turns out they were forgetting days or taking pills at random times each day.

Maybe women don't always choose to get pregnant, but they made choices with pregnancy as a possible outcome. If you're defending abortion on the grounds of it being a "choice", then you can't ignore the choice to engage in sexual activity that could lead to pregnancy.

I know someone who's almost in the situation you described. She actually wasn't using birth control pills at the time and they were using condoms while she was getting a new pill and the condom broke so she's having a baby and we're all very happy and excited, as is she. They realize they made a huge mistake, but luckily they're excited about having a baby.

i'm just throwing possibilities out there.
 
indra said:
My problem with the "in cases of rape" clause, is that how do you prove it?

Think about that.

Just what does it take to prove you were raped so you can get an abortion?

Hm....good point. I suppose you should just be able to go to the Dr. and say you were raped and they take your word for it. I'm sure people could take advantage of it, but then they can live with lying about being raped. To require rape kits or a police report is just too much, most rape victims never report the crime. :(
 
indra said:
Just what does it take to prove you were raped so you can get an abortion?



wow. can you imagine the trauma if women have to plead their case that they were raped?

to complicate this further, can you imagine the men who will be accused of rape in order for a woman to obtain an abortion?
 
Irvine511 said:




wow. can you imagine the trauma if women have to plead their case that they were raped?

to complicate this further, can you imagine the men who will be accused of rape in order for a woman to obtain an abortion?

ok, so I failed to think of this. I guess my main beef with abortions is that they're so easy to get and everyone I know that's had one did so because they were irresponsible. Yes, there are very special cases, but that's such a small minority. On the other hand, some doctors won't even let men get vasectomies without the wife's consent and you can barely get good birth control pills at reasonable prices (my insurance won't cover them unless they are for reasons other than preventing pregnancy :der: ).

Also, I don't like how anyone can anonymously get an abortion and that's the end of it. Many women who make that choice have a terrible time dealing for a long time after. If abortion is going to be legal, there should be a counselling component offered or required.
 
Irvine511 said:




are you in danger of getting pregnant anytime soon?

this seems far more fundamental to the issue -- i think the racial analogies are strained, at best.

I know it impacts women far more, but if a man believes it is murder you can't just dismiss his wanting to prevent murder because he doesn't have a womb.

I still think it's a hard question...I know some religions believe it's not a child until it gains its eyesight, etc. so you can't say across the board that it begins at conception. At the same time, I was born at 7 or 7.5 months and I don't like the idea of abortions occuring that late. I personally think first trimester abortions are fine but once you get into the late second or the third it makes me very uncomfortable.

Hopefully the law won't stand....I watched a special a few months ago on how pressure groups and lawmakers have already made abortion incredibly difficult in poorer areas of Mississippi, Louisiana, etc. There are even people arguing that the "undue burden" concept should be case by case...:crazy:
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:


you can barely get good birth control pills at reasonable prices (my insurance won't cover them unless they are for reasons other than preventing pregnancy :der: ).


I think this must change if people want the numbers of abortions to fall. People who want to ban abortions should push for and be willing to fund cheap (even free) birth control for everyone.

And if they want healthy babies they should so the same for prenatal and pediatric care. Free or at least very cheap. A good healthy start in life should be a given, not a privilege for only wealthy people. We'd all benefit from it.
 
We have people calling for the ban on abortion.

Why are they not calling for jail time or stiff penalties for pharmacists who refuse to provide prescribed birth control or the morning after pill?
 
VertigoGal said:


I know it impacts women far more, but if a man believes it is murder you can't just dismiss his wanting to prevent murder because he doesn't have a womb.


and this gets at the fundamental tension -- the fetus' "right" to life versus a woman's "right" to control her body ... they're two different issues, two sets of "rights" that defy logical comparison, yet they are put in contention.

ultimately, i am simply more concerned with the "rights" of living, breathing human beings.

i think that clear thining about abortion leads you to have to make some brutal choices.
 
indra said:


I think this must change if people want the numbers of abortions to fall. People who want to ban abortions should push for and be willing to fund cheap (even free) birth control for everyone.

And if they want healthy babies they should so the same for prenatal and pediatric care. Free or at least very cheap. A good healthy start in life should be a given, not a privilege for only wealthy people. We'd all benefit from it.

:up:
 
well in terms of "rights" I think most would agree that the right to life is most fundamental of them all. (If I believed that a fetus was a child in the first trimester, abortion would be murder and I would be against it. period.)

so I think it's got much more to do with the conflict as to when human life begins than with competing rights of the fetus and the woman.
 
indra said:


I think this must change if people want the numbers of abortions to fall. People who want to ban abortions should push for and be willing to fund cheap (even free) birth control for everyone.

And if they want healthy babies they should so the same for prenatal and pediatric care. Free or at least very cheap. A good healthy start in life should be a given, not a privilege for only wealthy people. We'd all benefit from it.

I agree. It sucks because places DO exist, but then there's the stigma of going to the "clinic". I know a local place where you can get birth control for free, but the point is that women shouldn't have to go to some dirty hole in the wall place for something so basic.
 
Since I'm graduating from med school in 2 months, I figured I'd throw some medical knowledge into this discussion:


Contraceptive Failure Rates
Ideal-use failure rates: (assumes absolute perfect use)
#Sterilization:
## Male Sterilization-----0.1%
##Female Sterilization----0.5%
#Hormonal Methods:
##Implant (Norplant)----0.09%
##Hormone Shot (Depo-Provera)---0.3%
##Combined Pill (Estrogen/Progestin)---0.1%
##Minipill (Progestin only)---0.5%
#Intrauterine Devices (IUDs):
##Copper T---0.6%
##Progesterone T---1.5%
#Barrier Methods:
##Male Latex Condom---3%
##Diaphragm----6%
##Vaginal Sponge (no previous births)---9%
##Vaginal Sponge (previous births)----20%
##Cervical Cap (no previous births)---9%
##Cervical Cap (previous births)---26%
##Female Condom----5%
#Spermicide: (gel, foam, suppository, film)---6%
#Natural Methods:
##Withdrawal---4%
##Natural Family Planning (calendar, temperature, cervical mucus)---1-9%
#No Method:----85%

"Real-life" failure rates:
# Implants and injectables
2-4%
# Oral contraceptives
9%
# Diaphragm and cervical cap
13%
# Male condom
15%
# Periodic abstinence
22%
# Withdrawal
26%
# Spermicides
28%

(statistics taken from FDA data)
Let me add that in my mere 2 years of clinical experience, I've seen many pregnancies in couples that used contraception exactly as labeled (and I asked details). I've also seen many people not use contraception correctly & not get pregnant.

Rape & Sexual Assault Statistics


General Stats Using Broad Definition of Rape As "Unwanted Sexual Activity":
#One out of every three women will be raped in her lifetime.

#One out of four girls and one out of six boys are sexually abused before age 18.

#84% of rapes go unreported; 46% of survivors of acquaintance rape and 27% of stranger rape survivors never tell anyone.

#77% of rape survivors know their attacker. These include rapes committed by relatives, neighbors, acquaintances and boyfriends. 57% of rapes occur on a date.

#90% of children under the age of 12 knew their assailants.

#51-60% of college men report they would rape a woman if they were certain that they would get away with it. One out of twelve college men surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape; 84% of these men said what they did was DEFINITELY not rape.

#One in every seven married women will be sexually assaulted by her husband.


Finally, Stats from the US Bureau of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey
#Rape/Sexual Assault: 2001-02: 247,990 women; 2003-04: 204,370 women
#Attempted Rape: 2001-2002: 70,050 women; 2003-04: 43,440 women
#Completed Rape: 2001-02: 87,010 women; 2003-04: 65,510 women


Cliff's Notes:
1). Contraception is not anywhere near perfect, even if perfectly used.

2). Rape is nowhere near as rare as you want to believe. In just under four years, 152,520 women in the United States reported being fully raped (not attempted rape). Given that 84% of rapes are unreported, 953,120 women in the U.S. were raped between 2001-2004. Even if half were only attempted rape, that's still nearly 500,000 completed rapes in four years.

:sad:

Debate morals, etc., that's fine. But please don't think that things are rare because they haven't happened to you. Stew over these numbers and tell me that being a victim of rape or getting pregnant despite using contraception perfectly are extremely rare occurrences in the United States.
 
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indra said:

Yeah.

Besides the one out of every three women stat, I find this one to be the most disgusting:

#51-60% of college men report they would rape a woman if they were certain that they would get away with it. One out of twelve college men surveyed had committed acts that met the legal definition of rape; 84% of these men said what they did was DEFINITELY not rape.

I think part of the reason why people don't think rape is so common is that if you watch the news, you never hear the word "rape" anymore. You only hear "sexual assault" or "sexually assaulted," and they no longer say "rape."

:|
 
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When I was a teenager my girlfriend (now my ex) and I had sex (safe sex supposedly) and she became opregnant. Of course both of us were terrified, but we decided to take responsibility and do whatever it took to raise our child.

Well, she had a miscarriage, which broke both of our hearts. I know it might sound kind of silly, but coming from someone who used to be a dad (yes I think I have a baby in Heaven) I can tell you Im just about 100% sure abortion should be illegal. Peopl really need to take responsibility for their actions. Sure it wold have been hard for me and my girlfriend, but there's no doubt we would have got by somehow. Anyone could. Having a baby won't result in anyone living on the streets or anything. I think it's usually an excuse to live a more convenient life.

And until we can say with 100% certainty that the fetus ISN'T a human life who are we to say abortions are OK? If it's guesswork (whch is it) then we could have millions of potential murders of innocent children on our hands :(
 
shart1780 said:
Sure it wold have been hard for me and my girlfriend, but there's no doubt we would have got by somehow. Anyone could. Having a baby won't result in anyone living on the streets or anything. I think it's usually an excuse to live a more convenient life.




i am very sorry for your loss, but this is a terrifically naive statement.
 
Hmmm...I have so many thoughts on the abortion debate I never know where to start.

First, I guess I would say these stats make it clearer that if you believe in a fetus' right to life over a woman's choice to remain pregnant, it makes no sense to say abortion is acceptable in cases of rape vs. any other unintentional pregnancy. There really is no point in comparing *degrees* of accidental pregnancy. After all, you could comare having unprotected sex and getting pregnant to walking alone at night and getting raped. It's your own fault, right?

Why is the question, when does life begin really relevant? It really only serves to avoid the question of one set of rights vs another. Why avoid the question?

Is a potential life in a petrie dish or uterus simply life to be protected at all cost?

Is abortion ok if a mother's life is at stake? Is that not deciding one life is more valuable or important than the other?

If you establish that right, then who has more right to life, hundreds of thousands of people with degenerating diseases or 400,000 unwanted frozen embryos (in the US alone) who can possibly save them and perhaps millions in the future?

Who decides?

If a government can unwillingly draft you into war to kill and/or be killed, is that authority higher than any one person's authority over her own body when it is a question of life and death...if so, why?
 
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Originally posted by AliEnvy There really is no point in comparing *degrees* of accidental pregnancy.

I would say that getting pregnant after intentionally having sex with someone is vastly different from getting pregnant because a stranger raped you!

After all, you could comare having unprotected sex and getting pregnant to walking alone at night and getting raped. It's your own fault, right?

Do you seriously believe that getting raped because you walked alone at night is really your own fault??? I find that to be an extremely awful point of view. :sad: I can only hope you're playing devil's advocate...:huh:
 
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How can someone who supports the right to abortion be against the death penalty? Maybe the difference is the person on death row is a sentient being who knows just what is going on, and the baby-to-be is not by by definition.
 
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