Socially Acceptable Holocaust Denial?

[melon]

Monument To Be Erected In Israel To Gay Holocaust Victims

Posted: May 1, 2008 - 3:00 pm ET

(Tel Aviv, Israel) A monument will be erected in Tel Aviv honoring gays and lesbians persecuted during the Holocaust.

The Israeli news site Ynet reported Wednesday that an agreement to build the monument has been signed by city council and LGBT civil rights leader Itai Pinkas.

The announcement came as Israel observed Holocaust Remembrance Day honoring the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis.

Tel Aviv Mayor Ron Huldai said that the design for the monument to LGBT victims will feature an iron triangle and bear the names of those victims who have been identified. Homosexuals were required by the Nazis to wear pink triangles to identify them.

The monument will be set up in Meir Garden the mayor said. It will be the first memorial in Israel to gay victims of the holocaust in Germany. Similar monuments are in Amsterdam, Copenhagen, San Francisco and Sydney, Australia. Work is underway for a monument in Berlin.

In Jerusalem, the Yad Vashem Museum on the Holocaust features a small exhibit dedicated to gay and lesbian victims of the Nazis.

The American Holocaust Museum in Washington also has an exhibit dedicated to gays and lesbians.

Under Paragraph 175 of the German penal code, which banned sexual intimacy between members of the same gender, an untold number of gays and lesbians were rounded up by the Nazis and sent to concentration camps where they were subjected to medical experiments including lobotomies, and forced to work in labor camps.

Estimates of gays and lesbians persecuted by the Nazis range from several thousand to a quarter million. A large number of those interred were sent on to the gas chambers.

Orthodox religious leaders in Israel who have fought to try to block gay pride marches from taking place in Jerusalem denounced the Tel Aviv memorial as trivializing the millions of Jews who were exterminated by the Nazis.

Last month, a Catholic bishop in Scotland accused gays of using the Holocaust to further their political objectives.

"It is ever present at the service each year for the Holocaust memorial - as if to create for themselves the image of a group of people under persecution," the Right Rev Joseph Devine said.

Even in the US there have been deniers of gay Holocaust victims.

In 2003 Minnesota state Rep. Arlon Lindner (R) during debate on two bills he had brought forward to repeal gay rights laws in the state, said gays were lying when they cited thousands of homosexuals who were exterminated or sent to concentration camps by the Nazis.

"It never happened," Lindner told the House.

"I was a child during World War II, and I've read a lot about World War II," he said. "It's just been recently that anyone's come out with this idea that homosexuals were persecuted to this extent. There's been a lot of rewriting of history."

The remarks shocked the legislature, but attempts to censure him failed.

It never ceases to amaze me what disgusting venom people will say, just to avoid admitting that their ideology and beliefs are wrong.

 

[melon]

To add historical insult to injury...

While the Nazi persecution of homosexuals is reasonably well-known today, far less attention had been given to the continuation of this persecution in post-war Germany. In 1945, when concentration camps were liberated, homosexual prisoners were not freed but were instead made to serve out their sentence under Paragraph 175. In 1950, East Germany abolished Nazi amendments to Paragraph 175, whereas West Germany kept them and even had them confirmed by its Constitutional Court. About 100,000 men were implicated in legal proceedings from 1945 to 1969, and about 50,000 were convicted (if they had not committed suicide before, as many did). In 1969, the government eased Paragraph 175 to an age of consent of 21. It was lowered to 18 in 1973, and finally the paragraph was repealed and the age of consent lowered to 14, the same that is in force for heterosexual acts, in 1994. East Germany had already reformed its more lenient version of the paragraph in 1968, and repealed it in 1988.

 

[A_Wanderer]

God Hates Fags.

 

[Vincent Vega]

"It never happened," Lindner told the House.

"I was a child during World War II, and I've read a lot about World War II," he said. "It's just been recently that anyone's come out with this idea that homosexuals were persecuted to this extent. There's been a lot of rewriting of history."

What an asshole. If he has no fucking clue he should just shut up.


We now have a memorial for the Jews, the Sinti & Roma, the politically persecuted (Communists, Social Democrats etc.), for the people in the resistance, for the mentally and physically disabled and as mentioned a memorial for the gays and lesbians is currently under construction here in Berlin.
Are they saying that the memorials for the Sinti & Roma, the politically persecuted, the resistance fighters and the mentally and physically disabled are trivializing the Shoa as well?

There is no trivializing in commemorating the millions of other innocently killed and tortured.

 

[vaz02]

Why do we need a monument to remember gay holocaust victims anyway ? All victims of the holocaust should be membered equally regardless of sexual orientation. They all suffered equally after all.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I doubt that a lot, most people cannot empathise other groups of people; if Jews are a stretch what chance do the gays have.

 

[Irvine511]

Why do we need a monument to remember gay holocaust victims anyway ? All victims of the holocaust should be membered equally regardless of sexual orientation. They all suffered equally after all.

what this monument is saying is not that there were some victims of the Holocaust who happened to be gay, which indeed there were, but that there were people who were victims of the Holocaust precisely because they were gay -- they were singled out and exterminated for that reason alone, as evidenced by the pink triangles that has since been used by gay activist groups as part of their iconography.

that's the distinction. if there's a separate monument for the 6m Jews out of 11m total, and separate monument for the Sinti and the Roma, it seems perfectly appropriate to have one for another group selected for their undesirability.

 

[Vincent Vega]

If people hear about the Holocaust, how many then think about not only Jews, but also homosexuals, Sinti & Roma, disabled people etc.? That's precisely why there shouldn't be one monument for all. People too easily forget.

 

[yolland]

Sounds like Lindner has quite a history:

In 2004 then State Rep. Keith Ellison (DFL-Minneapolis) and a group of fellow Democratic-Farmer-Labor members of the Minnesota State House of Representatives filed an ethics complaint against State Rep. Arlon Lindner (R-Corcoran) for a speech he made denying that homosexuals were targeted by the Nazis and were slain in the Holocaust

...At the time Lindner was already seen as controversial. In 1997 as the case of Baehr v. Miike was progressing through the Hawaiian State Court system, Minnesotan social conservatives feared their state would recognize same-sex marriages performed there...On the House floor Lindner claimed that allowing same-sex marriage would open the door to "a man marrying a child or a man marrying a dog."

...In May 2001 Lindner was outraged by the news that Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama, was going to address the Minnesota Legislature. In an e-mail to House members he stated “As a Christian, I am offended that we would have the Dalai Lama come and speak to a joint meeting of our Minnesota Legislature..."

...[Lindner's] first complaint stemmed from a May 2000 incident after the Republican party took control of the House and some members felt that the prayers opening the session where becoming too sectarian...Rep. Michael Paymar (DFL-St. Paul), who is Jewish, said "I would like to be part of that moment where a religious leader gets up before us and has a prayer. But I would like that to be non-denominational, and I would like it to be respectful of who I am."...In responding to Paymar, Lindner said "You know, we're told there's one God and one mediator between God and man. That man is Jesus Christ. And most of us here are Christians. And we shouldn't be left not able to pray in the name of our God....And if you don't like it, you may have to like it--or just don't come. I don't come sometimes for some prayers here....We have that privilege, and you need to exercise it. But don't impose your irreligious left views on me."...The ethics panel found the comments "regrettable", but took no disciplinary action.

...Linder’s [Holocaust] comments not only drew a response from members of the DFL, but also from Hinda Kibort, an 82-year-old Holocaust survivor who had lived in a concentration camp in Germany from 1941 to 1945. She said “[h]is obvious lack of knowledge concerning Nazi barbarity in World War II is appalling." She stated that the Nazis identified homosexuals in her camp with pink stars, and that "nlike Lindner, I did not learn about World War II and the Nazi Holocaust by reading books. I was in a concentration camp and can testify to the fact that homosexuals were indeed persecuted based on their sexuality."...At the Ethics Committee hearing...Kibort testified against Lindner, saying she saw him as a Holocaust denier: "Because if he denies a part of what happened, he denies the Holocaust. There is no way around that."

That's wonderful and long overdue that Tel Aviv is building a memorial for gay and lesbian Holocaust victims, and disgusting but not surprising that some of the haredim are protesting it. I guess in their book there are some people it's perfectly OK to round up and send to the gas chambers...

 

[martha]

It must be comforting for them to agree with Nazis.

 

[deep]

Denial, exaggeration, to outright fabrication are used to support a bias beliefs.

Why? because sound reasoning destroys all arguments in favor of those bias'.

 

[yolland]

It must be comforting for them to agree with Nazis.

The 'denouncers' might well be Neturei Karta (who were indeed ringleaders of the anti-gay-pride-parade protests, which the article alludes to), in which case, yes, that probably would comfort them; as it is, their idea of observing (or rather opposing) Holocaust Remembrance Day is burning Israeli flags and waving placards proclaiming their belief that the Holocaust was deserved, divinely ordained punishment for Jews. (I have no idea how other victim groups fit into their ideology or if they've ever even gotten around to thinking about that.)

 

[martha]

their idea of observing (or rather opposing) Holocaust Remembrance Day is burning Israeli flags and waving placards proclaiming their belief that the Holocaust was deserved, divinely ordained punishment for Jews.

W
T
F

 

[financeguy]

I think that before we use emotive phrases like Holocaust denial we should take a step back and look at the actual figures.

Per the first article posted:-

Estimates of gays and lesbians persecuted by the Nazis range from several thousand to a quarter million.

Now assuming that say 5% of any given population is gay, using the lower of the two estimates in the article ('several thousand') and applying it to the overall figure of 6 million we find that gays were disproportionately LESS persecuted in the Holocaust than straights. Even using the HIGHER estimate of a quarter million,
the number of gays persecuted is only around the same as one would expect to find in a given population of 6 million.

To be bluntly honest, until I see better evidence, I call bullshit on this.

 

[Vincent Vega]

What? Last week I saw some strange playing with figures from a politician, but this tops it, honestly.
No straight was persecuted for being straight, but at least several thousand people were brutally tortured and slaughtered for being gay.

So the porajmos didn't happen, either? After all, estimates range from 100,000 to 800,000, so apparently not really mentionable.

 

[Bono's shades]

I think that before we use emotive phrases like Holocaust denial we should take a step back and look at the actual figures.

Per the first article posted:-



Now assuming that say 5% of any given population is gay, using the lower of the two estimates in the article ('several thousand') and applying it to the overall figure of 6 million we find that gays were disproportionately LESS persecuted in the Holocaust than straights. Even using the HIGHER estimate of a quarter million,
the number of gays persecuted is only around the same as one would expect to find in a given population of 6 million.

To be bluntly honest, until I see better evidence, I call bullshit on this.

What part of being forced to wear a pink triangle don't you understand? They weren't gay people who just happened to be among those persecuted. The Nazis went after them precisely because they were gay.

 

[martha]

I think that before we use emotive phrases like Holocaust denial we should take a step back and look at the actual figures.

Per the first article posted:-



Now assuming that say 5% of any given population is gay, using the lower of the two estimates in the article ('several thousand') and applying it to the overall figure of 6 million we find that gays were disproportionately LESS persecuted in the Holocaust than straights. Even using the HIGHER estimate of a quarter million,
the number of gays persecuted is only around the same as one would expect to find in a given population of 6 million.

To be bluntly honest, until I see better evidence, I call bullshit on this.

Sounds like proof the title of this thread is too true.

 

[financeguy]

No straight was persecuted for being straight

No-one has made that claim.

but at least several thousand people

from 100,000 to 800,000

Which is it then?

 

[financeguy]

Sounds like proof the title of this thread is too true.

Sounds like you're just throwing slurs around (what's new?)

 

[martha]

Sounds like you're just throwing slurs around (what's new?)

But I thought from now on you were just "simply disagreeing" with me?

And what "slur" did I throw around?

 

[Vincent Vega]

No-one has made that claim.

we find that gays were disproportionately LESS persecuted in the Holocaust than straights.

What is that meant to say, then?

Which is it then? [/B]

The second figure is by how much the estimates are ranging as to how many Sinti & Roma have been killed by the Nazis. By your strange maths that's not really that important, as it is just a tiny percentage of how many Jews have been killed, and additionally the population of Sinti & Roma in Europe wasn't that big.

Apparently I'm not the only one who then didn't understand correctly what you meant with your post. Maybe you could explain it to me?

 

[financeguy]

But I thought from now on you were just "simply disagreeing" with me?

Bait and switch....the usual tactic of the far left on FYM. I'm not sure whether you learned it from BonoVoxSupastar, or the other way around.

And what "slur" did I throw around?

Are you now denying that you just called me a holocaust denier?

 

[financeguy]

Apparently I'm not the only one who then didn't understand correctly what you meant with your post. Maybe you could explain it to me?

It isn't that difficult. There's a big difference between several thousand and a quarter million (and even if the latter figure is the correct one, it doesn't seem dramatically different from the number we'd statisically expect to be gay of a given population.)

All I'm looking for is some evidence of this gay Holocaust. If you can provide it, go ahead.

 

[martha]

Are you now denying that you just called me a holocaust denier?

You seem to be agreeing with the folks melon quoted.

Or, instead of getting your boxers wadded up about what I posted (which seems to be easier and more fun that actually answering questions), you could answer some of the questions asked of you, which may clarify just what the hell you meant.

 

[martha]

All I'm looking for is some evidence of this gay Holocaust. If you can provide it, go ahead.

But I thought you weren't denying any Holocaust?

 

[DrTeeth]

Check out the fifth column, and then tell me that the Nazis didn't have it in for homosexuals.

 

[Vincent Vega]

What a pity that many gays managed it to hide their orientation, flee the country or going underground.
The Nazis were primarily focussing on incarcerating gays, i.e. men, while they often "ignored" lesbians. That might be one reason why the statistic doesn't help here. Another reason: The European society wasn't that open to gay people anyways, so they haven't been that open about their orientation anyways, which might have helped to stay out of the focus of the Nazis.
If really five percent of any given society would be gay would be another question.
Also, one might want to look up how many homosexuals survived the concentration camps.

But all that doesn't change the fact: In the Nazi's world view gay people were another form of "imperfect life" and they were persecuted. They had to wear the pink triangle and many of them ended up in concentration camps. Some survived, others not, based upon whether they were fit enough to work or not.

Of course there is a big difference between several thousands and a quarter million, just as there is a big difference between 100,000 and 800,000 Sinti & Roma. But no one is seriously questioning whether a concerted harrassment and elimination of that group has happened. And no one is seriously questioning whether the Nazis were out to eliminate gays.

 

[financeguy]

Of course there is a big difference between several thousands and a quarter million, just as there is a big difference between 100,000 and 800,000 Sinti & Roma. But no one is seriously questioning whether a concerted harrassment and elimination of that group has happened. And no one is seriously questioning whether the Nazis were out to eliminate gays.

100,000 to 800,000 was a very substantial proportion of Europe's Sinti and Roma. 6 million was a huge proportion of European Jewry at the time. Several thousand was not a huge proportion of the entire European homosexual population at the time.

 

[financeguy]

If really five percent of any given society would be gay would be another question.

It would indeed, yes. Some surveys (e.g., McKinsey) put it at considerably higher. Which makes my question more, not less pertinent.

 

[Vincent Vega]

It doesn't negate one simple fact: If you were known to be gay back then, you ended up in a concentratin camp being singled out with a pink triangle.