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Old 05-03-2008, 05:03 PM   #21
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Originally posted by financeguy



No-one has made that claim.


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we find that gays were disproportionately LESS persecuted in the Holocaust than straights.
What is that meant to say, then?


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Which is it then? [/B]
The second figure is by how much the estimates are ranging as to how many Sinti & Roma have been killed by the Nazis. By your strange maths that's not really that important, as it is just a tiny percentage of how many Jews have been killed, and additionally the population of Sinti & Roma in Europe wasn't that big.

Apparently I'm not the only one who then didn't understand correctly what you meant with your post. Maybe you could explain it to me?
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:03 PM   #22
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Originally posted by martha
But I thought from now on you were just "simply disagreeing" with me?
Bait and switch....the usual tactic of the far left on FYM. I'm not sure whether you learned it from BonoVoxSupastar, or the other way around.

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Originally posted by martha
And what "slur" did I throw around?
Are you now denying that you just called me a holocaust denier?
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:08 PM   #23
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Apparently I'm not the only one who then didn't understand correctly what you meant with your post. Maybe you could explain it to me?
It isn't that difficult. There's a big difference between several thousand and a quarter million (and even if the latter figure is the correct one, it doesn't seem dramatically different from the number we'd statisically expect to be gay of a given population.)

All I'm looking for is some evidence of this gay Holocaust. If you can provide it, go ahead.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:10 PM   #24
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Originally posted by financeguy
Are you now denying that you just called me a holocaust denier?
You seem to be agreeing with the folks melon quoted.

Or, instead of getting your boxers wadded up about what I posted (which seems to be easier and more fun that actually answering questions), you could answer some of the questions asked of you, which may clarify just what the hell you meant.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:10 PM   #25
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Originally posted by financeguy

All I'm looking for is some evidence of this gay Holocaust. If you can provide it, go ahead.
But I thought you weren't denying any Holocaust?
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:16 PM   #26
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Check out the fifth column, and then tell me that the Nazis didn't have it in for homosexuals.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:18 PM   #27
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What a pity that many gays managed it to hide their orientation, flee the country or going underground.
The Nazis were primarily focussing on incarcerating gays, i.e. men, while they often "ignored" lesbians. That might be one reason why the statistic doesn't help here. Another reason: The European society wasn't that open to gay people anyways, so they haven't been that open about their orientation anyways, which might have helped to stay out of the focus of the Nazis.
If really five percent of any given society would be gay would be another question.
Also, one might want to look up how many homosexuals survived the concentration camps.

But all that doesn't change the fact: In the Nazi's world view gay people were another form of "imperfect life" and they were persecuted. They had to wear the pink triangle and many of them ended up in concentration camps. Some survived, others not, based upon whether they were fit enough to work or not.

Of course there is a big difference between several thousands and a quarter million, just as there is a big difference between 100,000 and 800,000 Sinti & Roma. But no one is seriously questioning whether a concerted harrassment and elimination of that group has happened. And no one is seriously questioning whether the Nazis were out to eliminate gays.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:22 PM   #28
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Of course there is a big difference between several thousands and a quarter million, just as there is a big difference between 100,000 and 800,000 Sinti & Roma. But no one is seriously questioning whether a concerted harrassment and elimination of that group has happened. And no one is seriously questioning whether the Nazis were out to eliminate gays.

100,000 to 800,000 was a very substantial proportion of Europe's Sinti and Roma. 6 million was a huge proportion of European Jewry at the time. Several thousand was not a huge proportion of the entire European homosexual population at the time.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:25 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
If really five percent of any given society would be gay would be another question.
It would indeed, yes. Some surveys (e.g., McKinsey) put it at considerably higher. Which makes my question more, not less pertinent.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:26 PM   #30
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It doesn't negate one simple fact: If you were known to be gay back then, you ended up in a concentratin camp being singled out with a pink triangle.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:30 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy

Bait and switch....the usual tactic of the far left on FYM. I'm not sure whether you learned it from BonoVoxSupastar, or the other way around.


Wow, who's baiting? I wasn't even in this thread.



Quote:
gays were disproportionately LESS persecuted in the Holocaust than straights
Can we say fuzzy math.

You seem to be missing the point.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:31 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


It would indeed, yes. Some surveys (e.g., McKinsey) put it at considerably higher. Which makes my question more, not less pertinent.
In your opinion, at which number would the term holocaust be justified?
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:31 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
It doesn't negate one simple fact: If you were known to be gay back then, you ended up in a concentratin camp being singled out with a pink triangle.
It is certainly conceivable that if more gays at the time were 'out' the numbers persecuted would have been higher. So, it is certainly POSSIBLE that the rather low figure of several thousand (or quarter million) could have been much higher.

But it wasn't, which causes me to suspect that though the Nazis may well have gone after gays, they were much more obsessed with persecuting Jews (and Roma. And Polish people also, for that matter).
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:31 PM   #34
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Originally posted by DrTeeth


In your opinion, at which number would the term holocaust be justified?
Not several thousand, that's for sure.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:34 PM   #35
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Yes, the Nazis did have a weird kind of priority list, but they also planned in a 1,000 year time period.
But there were other simple reasons why they had their priorities set different: It's much easier to find out who is at least 1/16 Jew or Roma or Sinti, or even communist, than who is gay.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:37 PM   #36
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Yes, the Nazis did have a weird kind of priority list, but they also planned in a 1,000 year time period.
But there were other simple reasons why they had their priorities set different: It's much easier to find out who is at least 1/16 Jew or Roma or Sinti, or even communist, than who is gay.
That is certainly a legitimate point.

I think that if we going to talk of forgotten victims of the Nazis though, it would be Poles that would have first claims, in my opinion, at least.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:42 PM   #37
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Originally posted by financeguy


That is certainly a legitimate point.

I think that if we going to talk of forgotten victims of the Nazis though, it would be Poles that would have first claims, in my opinion, at least.
So gays should just wait until it's their turn? And would Jehova's witnesses come before or after the homosexuals?
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:26 PM   #38
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega


So gays should just wait until it's their turn? And would Jehova's witnesses come before or after the homosexuals?
Apparently, it all depends on crunching the numbers.
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Old 05-03-2008, 06:27 PM   #39
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Originally posted by financeguy


Not several thousand, that's for sure.
But you're not a holocaust denier. Nope.

It's just that certain groups weren't persecuted in the proper numbers for you.


I see.
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:20 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
It is certainly conceivable that if more gays at the time were 'out' the numbers persecuted would have been higher. So, it is certainly POSSIBLE that the rather low figure of several thousand (or quarter million) could have been much higher.

But it wasn't, which causes me to suspect that though the Nazis may well have gone after gays, they were much more obsessed with persecuting Jews (and Roma. And Polish people also, for that matter).
And what does this have to do with anything? You know, one of the arguments from run-of-the-mill anti-Semitic Holocaust deniers is that, according to their logic, "not that many" Jews were killed by the Nazis, so "what's the big deal"?

Frankly, the evidence for gays being one of the Nazi targets in the Holocaust is factual knowledge, at this point, especially considering if they weren't, there wouldn't have been a "Paragraph 175" for East and West Germany to have continued well after World War II.

If, in light of all this in this thread, that you still make light of gays in the Holocaust like you have been, then I guess you are little more than a ridiculous Holocaust denier. And that would be a real pity.

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In 1935, the Nazis broadened the law so that the courts could pursue any "lewd act" whatsoever, even one involving no physical contact, such as masturbating next to each other. Convictions multiplied by a factor of ten to about 8,000 per year. Furthermore, the Gestapo could transport suspected offenders to concentration camps without any legal justification at all (even if they had been acquitted or already served their sentence in jail). Thus, between 5,000 and 15,000 homosexual men were forced into concentration camps, where they were identified by the pink triangle. The majority of them died there.
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The prisoners with a pink triangle identified themselves as gay (sometimes they were married to women, and engaged in very few, if any, homosexual acts). Not everyone convicted under Paragraph 175 was sent to a concentration camp; in fact, most were sent to ordinary jails. Most gay men who suffered and died in Nazi concentration camps actually wore the yellow star (because they were both gay and Jewish).

While the number of homosexuals in concentration camps is hard to estimate, Richard Plant gives a rough estimate of the number of men convicted for homosexuality "between 1933 to 1944 at between 50,000 and 63,000."

After the camps were liberated at the end of the Second World War, many of the pink triangle prisoners were often simply re-imprisoned by the Allied-instated Federal Republic of Germany. An openly gay man named Heinz Dörmer, for instance, served 20 years in total both in a Nazi concentration camp and then in the jails of the new Republic. In fact, the Nazi amendments to Paragraph 175, which turned homosexuality from a minor offence into a felony, remained intact after the war for a further 24 years. While suits seeking monetary compensation have failed, in 2002 the German government released an official apology to the gay community.
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