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Old 11-11-2001, 04:11 PM   #1
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2girl:

- Arabs never had their own country.

LOL, ok.
i think this is the wrong forum for this sort of thread U2girl.


[This message has been edited by CannibalisticArtist (edited 11-11-2001).]

[This message has been edited by CannibalisticArtist (edited 11-11-2001).]
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Old 11-11-2001, 04:13 PM   #2
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Old 11-11-2001, 04:58 PM   #3
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I'll give you 24 hours to explain why this thread belongs in Lemonade Stand

starting ....

now!

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Old 11-11-2001, 05:40 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome:
I'll give you 24 hours to explain why this thread belongs in Lemonade Stand

starting ....

now!

LOL

tick....tock....tick....tock

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Old 11-11-2001, 07:36 PM   #5
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This belongs in FYM. No doubt.

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Old 11-11-2001, 07:48 PM   #6
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i don't think i'll make it another day if this post stays in the wrong forum...yes, she must be banned for this terrible offense...

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[This message has been edited by Se7en (edited 11-11-2001).]
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Old 11-11-2001, 07:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2girl:
Before the debate starts, let me bring out a few facts i read in an interview with an expert on Middle east affairs:

- Arabs never had their own country. They were promised to get a state in WW 1 by the British, should they fight against the Turks. They fought bravely, yet didn't get anything. Further more, when British left, they didn't take care of things whatsoever.

- Of course, there's the whole Israel/Palestinan question. The expert said that founding the state of Israel (and US supporting it) is the biggest wound to the Arabs.

- There's a sacred ground in Saudi Arabia (can't remember the city's name now), where apparently Koran was written and Muhammed stayed a while. It is an incredible offense if a foreigner sets foot on that ground, and US troops have been there for years.(and Osama bin Laden is Saudi Arabian)

- US used to support Bin Laden, when he was fighting against the Soviets - because he was useful to them as a protection from communism.

Not to justify terrorist actions, just to point out how complicated things are.
But back to the topic: is bombing the right way to deal with it?

Personally, i think it should have been done differently. For example, closing terrorist accounts in international banks or international diplomatic pressure would be/was a better solution.
I mean, sure, you can destroy terrorist camps but you won't destroy the whole terrorist network (because it's internationally spread) or bring down the Taliban regime (because it will take ground troops for a long-term control of the country, plus someone needs to put together a goverment people will be pleased with-that will probably take time).
Also, who says that when the Taliban regime is replaced, there will no longer be any terrorists?
Also, why not try using special forces and try to capture Bin Laden and the leading officers of Al Khaeda in a secret operation?

Most of these questions have been addressed in Free Your Mind in varying capacities.

As for the last question--why not use special forces to try to capture bin Laden and his cronies--there's probably something in the works, the press just doesn't know about it. I thought I saw an article on CNN that said that while Clinton was in office, there was an attempt to assassinate bin Laden. I can't find the article now, though.
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Old 11-11-2001, 07:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en:
i don't think i'll make it another day if this post stays in the wrong forum.
hang in there buddy. it'll be ok.

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Old 11-11-2001, 08:01 PM   #9
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hang in there buddy. it'll be ok.

deep breaths...deep breaths....i can't take it....

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Old 11-12-2001, 03:15 AM   #10
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So what do you guys think about US bombing Afghanistan?

Before the debate starts, let me bring out a few facts i read in an interview with an expert on Middle east affairs:

- Arabs never had their own country. They were promised to get a state in WW 1 by the British, should they fight against the Turks. They fought bravely, yet didn't get anything. Further more, when British left, they didn't take care of things whatsoever.

- Of course, there's the whole Israel/Palestinan question. The expert said that founding the state of Israel (and US supporting it) is the biggest wound to the Arabs.

- There's a sacred ground in Saudi Arabia (can't remember the city's name now), where apparently Koran was written and Muhammed stayed a while. It is an incredible offense if a foreigner sets foot on that ground, and US troops have been there for years.(and Osama bin Laden is Saudi Arabian)

- US used to support Bin Laden, when he was fighting against the Soviets - because he was useful to them as a protection from communism.

Not to justify terrorist actions, just to point out how complicated things are.
But back to the topic: is bombing the right way to deal with it?

Personally, i think it should have been done differently. For example, closing terrorist accounts in international banks or international diplomatic pressure would be/was a better solution.
I mean, sure, you can destroy terrorist camps but you won't destroy the whole terrorist network (because it's internationally spread) or bring down the Taliban regime (because it will take ground troops for a long-term control of the country, plus someone needs to put together a goverment people will be pleased with-that will probably take time).
Also, who says that when the Taliban regime is replaced, there will no longer be any terrorists?
Also, why not try using special forces and try to capture Bin Laden and the leading officers of Al Khaeda in a secret operation?

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[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 11-11-2001).]
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Old 11-12-2001, 03:33 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome:
I'll give you 24 hours to explain why this thread belongs in Lemonade Stand

starting ....

now!

*ahem* Too late now, isn't it? LOL, it's already been moved (has it been 24 hours? ).

I posted in Lemonade stand because that's where i spend a lot of time lately. It wasn't anything deliberately posted wrong. I didn't mean any harm with posting it there, ok?
But thanks for shoving it where it belongs-FYM, and thanks for letting me know it was better suited here.

When i saw the little thingie next to the title of my thread in Lemonade stand, i thought it was being closed PERIOD, not just moved into another forum.
It seemed weird because it was only 10 posts, which would make my record: i don't think any of my threads lasted this little before getting closed!
(this one doesn't count anyway, because it just got moved)

ps: Considering how much i post here, one would expect i would know better, since the short description of FYM includes "politics".
Ack! I feel like such a newbie.


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"It's about finding your way into the music." - Edge

"Something inside said this could be everything in your life." - Bono

"U2 as a band does things nobody one else can. I think that is a very powerful thing." - Larry

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[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 11-12-2001).]
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Old 11-12-2001, 05:11 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by CannibalisticArtist:
LOL, ok.
i think this is the wrong forum for this sort of thread U2girl.


[This message has been edited by CannibalisticArtist (edited 11-11-2001).]

[This message has been edited by CannibalisticArtist (edited 11-11-2001).]
Ok, he said Arabs, but he probably meant Palestinians.

Another thing which crossed my mind: what's next? After finishing things in Afghanistan?
(i don't think the Taliban or the terrorist are getting any weaker, also there were wrong targets hit during the bombings. who's to say there aren't little Bin Ladens growing up due to the bombings? what else can we expect-they're tought to hate US and democracy anyway-and what else is a child to think when he has to fear US bombs every day?
i also think things need to change globally-as long as there will be such a huge gap betwenn the developed countries and Third world, there will be conflicts. the governments need to eliminate the cause , instead of dealing with the consequences .)

What happens if anyone in Middle east is getting bombed? Will the coalition be as strong as it is now?

What about IRA, ETA? Are those internal affairs of Britain and Spain or is the plan to deal with them too?


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"It's about finding your way into the music." - Edge

"Something inside said this could be everything in your life." - Bono

"U2 as a band does things nobody one else can. I think that is a very powerful thing." - Larry

"Adam believed in the band before anyone did." - Bono



[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 11-12-2001).]
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Old 11-12-2001, 08:47 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2girl:
Ok, he said Arabs, but he probably meant Palestinians.

Another thing which crossed my mind: what's next? After finishing things in Afghanistan?
(i don't think the Taliban or the terrorist are getting any weaker, also there were wrong targets hit during the bombings. who's to say there aren't little Bin Ladens growing up due to the bombings? what else can we expect-they're tought to hate US and democracy anyway-and what else is a child to think when he has to fear US bombs every day?
i also think things need to change globally-as long as there will be such a huge gap betwenn the developed countries and Third world, there will be conflicts. the governments need to eliminate the cause , instead of dealing with the consequences .)

What happens if anyone in Middle east is getting bombed? Will the coalition be as strong as it is now?

What about IRA, ETA? Are those internal affairs of Britain and Spain or is the plan to deal with them too?

My impression is that kids in Afghanistan (or anywhere else in the world) don't turn into baby bin Ladens just because they're poor and live in war-torn countries. They turn into baby bin Ladens because they're aggressively recruited and indoctrinated by extremely fanatical terrorist camps like al-Qaeda. (Not to say that we shouldn't work for a more stable, peaceful Afghanistan after the war, or reconsider some of out other policies in the Middle East, though. But capitulating entirely to bin Laden's demands would be unreasonable.)

But if we can eliminate or severely cripple these terrorist camps, we'll be a lot safer. The US has done some pretty rotten things in other countries, but I haven't seen any Chilean or Guatemalan terrorists flying planes into our buildings.

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 11-12-2001).]
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Old 11-12-2001, 10:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer:
My impression is that kids in Afghanistan (or anywhere else in the world) don't turn into baby bin Ladens just because they're poor and live in war-torn countries. They turn into baby bin Ladens because they're aggressively recruited and indoctrinated by extremely fanatical terrorist camps like al-Qaeda.
If people are poor and live in war-torn coutries, they are more susceptible to the doctrine of people like Bin Laden, Hitler and Bush ( ).
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Old 11-12-2001, 11:46 PM   #15
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Originally posted by DrTeeth:
If people are poor and live in war-torn coutries, they are more susceptible to the doctrine of people like Bin Laden, Hitler and Bush ( ).
HAHAHAHA

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Old 11-12-2001, 11:48 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2girl:


- Arabs never had their own country. They were promised to get a state in WW 1 by the British, should they fight against the Turks. They fought bravely, yet didn't get anything. Further more, when British left, they didn't take care of things whatsoever.

Syria, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, etc. are all Arab nations.

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Old 11-12-2001, 11:54 PM   #17
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Yes, TheU2! I forgot completely about this statement by U2girl! U2girl: SURELY you were referring to the Palestinians, and not the Arabs as a whole, no? There are at least TWENTY-ONE (21) nations that consider themselves "Arab" and that does not even include Iran, Afghanistan or Pakistan (TheU2: www.Arab.net considers the "Arab nations" to include Iraq>westward).

U2girl - you meant to say Palestinians, right?

~U2Alabama
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Old 11-13-2001, 12:13 AM   #18
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Originally posted by U2Bama:
Yes, TheU2! I forgot completely about this statement by U2girl! U2girl: SURELY you were referring to the Palestinians, and not the Arabs as a whole, no? There are at least TWENTY-ONE (21) nations that consider themselves "Arab" and that does not even include Iran, Afghanistan or Pakistan (TheU2: www.Arab.net considers the "Arab nations" to include Iraq>westward).

U2girl - you meant to say Palestinians, right?

~U2Alabama
I don't think she meant Palestine. Her next arguement/point/non-stop dribble referenced Palestine/Israel conflict.

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Old 11-13-2001, 12:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2girl:
- Arabs never had their own country. They were promised to get a state in WW 1 by the British, should they fight against the Turks. They fought bravely, yet didn't get anything. Further more, when British left, they didn't take care of things whatsoever.
See my other reply where I address you and Theu2; thanks!

Quote:
- Of course, there's the whole Israel/Palestinan question. The expert said that founding the state of Israel (and US supporting it) is the biggest wound to the Arabs.
TRUE: a huge gap which the post-WW2 establishment of the Jewish state of Israel left to fester into a large open wound is "what about Palestine?" Well, most of the lands that should have been set aside were instead split up among Egypt (Gaza Strip), Jordan (West Bank), and Syria (Golan Heights). They should have been made contiguous and established as a Palestinian state. During the Arab-Israeli War up until 1967, Israel took these lands back because they (Israel) didn't have immigration limits for Jewish settlers who wanted to return to the "Jewish homeland;" not a good neighbor if you ask me, and I agree Palestine should be established as a state geographically resmebling an assemblage of these areas.

Quote:
- There's a sacred ground in Saudi Arabia (can't remember the city's name now), where apparently Koran was written and Muhammed stayed a while. It is an incredible offense if a foreigner sets foot on that ground, and US troops have been there for years.(and Osama bin Laden is Saudi Arabian)
You are basically giving credence to one of the most religiously descriminatory practices that is allowed in the world today: the "holy state" of Saudi Arabia. The strict Wahabi brand of Islam prohibits religious freedom outside of Islam, therefore, a tree worshipper could not worship his or her trees there, just as I could be prosecuted for entering the nation with a Bible. And our military was invited there when Saddam Hussein was making aggressions toward Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

Quote:
- US used to support Bin Laden, when he was fighting against the Soviets - because he was useful to them as a protection from communism.
We supported (training and supplies) the muhajideen, which faught alongside The Osama during the Afghan-Soviet Conflict. In fact, The Osama disdained the presence of the U.S. in this conflict and was never a true allie of the U.S. The muhajideen was comrised of forces which in the 1990s splintered off into several groups including Northern Alliance AND the Taliban. The Osama was basically a free-agen, a mercenary if you will, who had no home as he had been banished by the Saudis. So he took up residence amongst other thugs such as the theocratic factions in the muhajideen and the slave-holding thugs in Sudan.

Quote:
Not to justify terrorist actions, just to point out how complicated things are.
But back to the topic: is bombing the right way to deal with it?

Personally, i think it should have been done differently. For example, closing terrorist accounts in international banks or international diplomatic pressure would be/was a better solution.
I mean, sure, you can destroy terrorist camps but you won't destroy the whole terrorist network (because it's internationally spread) or bring down the Taliban regime (because it will take ground troops for a long-term control of the country, plus someone needs to put together a goverment people will be pleased with-that will probably take time).
Also, who says that when the Taliban regime is replaced, there will no longer be any terrorists?
Also, why not try using special forces and try to capture Bin Laden and the leading officers of Al Khaeda in a secret operation?

Bombing their infrastructure and intensive cave/bunker network is the most practical way to drive them out and force a surrender or, worst case, make a ground war more feasible. We are NOT targeting civilians and I do not think the civilian casualities are going to be as high as many of the anti-bombing interests are telling us. Also, remember that in a nation like Afghanistan where the official, internationally-recognized government is in exile elsewhere, the line between "civilian" and "military" is quite blurred, as the ruling regime pretty much forces whomever they can round up into some standing militia.

And we have been closing their accounts since shortly after 9/11.

They do not acknowledge/recognize "diplomatic pressure." Please remember that Al Qaeda bombed two U.S. embassies in Africa, and embassies are the structural symbol of "diplomacy."

No, we will not be able to destroy all of the terrorists, but this is a start.

And yes, special forces have been on the ground and more willbe going in soon.

But we can't just round them up and bring them to some prison; that is when their buddies hijack more planes and use their imprisoned goons as ransom for civilian airline passengers. Terrorism, if you will.

~U2Alabama
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Old 11-13-2001, 12:48 AM   #20
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What Bama said.

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