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#101 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 08:16 AM
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Ormus, there's a big difference to the Bible leading to archeological finds and the book of Mormon failing to turn up any.
__________________Also, some of the places and names mentioned in the book of Mormon are taken from the Bible, and the letters are switched. Wow. Sounds credible. |
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#102 |
Blue Crack Addict
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: on borderland we run
Posts: 16,861
Local Time: 08:16 AM
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#103 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 08:16 AM
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And I have no problem coexisting!
A difference of opinon isn't a bad thing. Heck, I have in-laws who are Mormon. I love them like anyone else and they love those of us in the family who disagree on them. They're family. Their beliefs don't negate who they are as people. You can disagree and discuss differences and still coexist. I'm sure Bono would agree. |
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#104 |
The Fly
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Laie, HI
Posts: 212
Local Time: 07:16 AM
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Yeah serious! I'm tired of all the hate here. Why do people have to go out and bash another religion? Is there something about it that they find threatening or are they scared of it? Latter-day Saints are Christians and most all of them I know are extremely good people. Calling them a cult is just ridiculous. Arguing over doctrinal issues is just a way of spreading hate. When the mormons say they allow people the privilege to worship how where or what they may, they aren't saying you can make up your own beliefs to be saved, but they are saying they are tolerant and aren't going to tear people down, much like what is going on here. If you profess to be Christian, act like Christ and stop spending so much time tearing other people's faith or beliefs down. Peace out.
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#105 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
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I don't hate Mormons. Did you read my posts where I said I have family who are Mormon and I love them dearly and get along with them very well? We had Mormon friends in our apartment complex that moved a few months ago whom we hated to see leave. There’s no hate here. Disagreeing isn't hate. If that's the case, than everyone in FYM hates each other. ![]() I'm not scared of Mormons or Mormonism, but I will stand up for truth. If how I’m saying things offends you, then you deserve an apology, which I offer up. However, if the facts I’m presenting offend you, that’s something different. And I think you have your references to Christ a bit wrong. He did say "I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody gets to the Father but by me." He's not tearing other faiths down, he's standing for truth. |
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#106 | |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,885
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![]() In here...no way! |
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#107 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 08:16 AM
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#108 | ||
War Child
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 09:16 AM
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It's inconsistent, hypocritical, and most certainly self-serving. That's really my only point here. |
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#109 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
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No. The Bible has actually been used to find stuff that hasn't been found before. It's proven to be a guide of sorts for archaeology. That's my point. There is no evidence of the cities described in the book of Mormon. With the Bible, it's people are historical. Archaeology is proving more and more of it right as time goes on.
You have proof against creationism! I'd love to hear it. And Noah's ark? If they haven't found it does that mean it didn't exist? |
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#110 | ||
War Child
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
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And Noah's Ark? There's so many holes in that story that it's downright laughable. 1) All the water on Earth is the same water we've had for billions and billions of years. As such, with all the water required to flood the Earth--and then for all of it to suddenly disappear--is not scientifically supported. 2) There is zero geological evidence of such flooding ever occurring. And evidence of flooding would certainly exist in glaciated regions or areas with deep permafrost, as some of these areas have been in a deep freeze for many thousands of years. 3) Even if an ark were to exist, it is not possible to have collected all the species of the world, considering that there are millions of species of animal. Considering that their known world would have excluded all Arctic/Antarctic species, Australian marsupials, and the entire New World (not to mention localized species outside of their known world), it is physically not possible. 4) The amount of death in such a short period of time should yield archaeological evidence of such massive destruction. If we can see evidence of a mass extinction from 65 million years ago, we would most certainly see evidence of a massive global slaughter that would have only occurred a few thousand years ago. The entire myth of Noah's Ark is an exaggeration of the Sumerian/Babylonian "Epic of Gilgamesh" flood myth. Even then, the "Epic of Gilgamesh" embellished from the earlier Akkhadian "Epic of Atrahasis." Linguistic evidence is very clear, as it demonstrates that "Gilgamesh" directly copied from "Atrahasis." The main difference is that "Atrahasis" clearly describes a river flood, as the Tigris and the Euphrates were/are known to flood. "Gilgamesh," however, decided to exaggerate it to a global flood. This is how legends are formed. |
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#111 |
War Child
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Frontios
Posts: 758
Local Time: 09:16 AM
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Oh yes, and I forgot about the earliest flood myth of them all, the Sumerian "Epic of Ziusudra." The most interesting aspect of this epic is an ancient mistranslation. The Sumerian word, "KUR," was mistranslated in Akkadian to mean "mountain." In fact, the word really means "country."
It's a several thousand year old game of telephone. |
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#112 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 08:16 AM
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Here’s what I’m getting at. I found this at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aege...0/history.html
1. - No ancient cities named uniquely and originally by The Book of Mormon (eg, the city of "Zarahelma") have ever been located in the Americas. 2. - No ancient peoples or nations (eg, the "Lamanites" and "Nephites") unique to The Book of Mormon have ever been found or mentioned in any archaeological inscriptions. 3. - No individual persons (eg, Nephi, Lehi, Zoram or Shule) unique to the Book of Mormon (not found in the Bible) have ever been mentioned in any archaeological inscriptions found anywhere in the world. 4. - No genuine inscriptions in any language resembling Hebrew (which the Lamanites and Nephites supposedly spoke in the Americas) have ever been found in the Americas. 5. - No genuine inscriptions in any language resembling Egyptian (to possibly correspond to Joseph Smith's "reformed Egyptian" --the language in which The Book of Mormon was supposedly originally given) have been found in the Americas. 6. - No archaeological inscriptions have been found which might indicate that ancient inhabitants in the Americas had Hebrew or Christian beliefs, as is maintained in The Book of Mormon. 7. - No artifact of any kind (eg, the coins described in Alma 11:4-19, or weights and measures) has ever been found in the Americas. 8. - The Book of Mormon says that Nephi and Shule (who supposedly lived in the Americas in 600 BC) possessed "steel" implements along with the knowledge to "forge" steel (1Nephi 4:9, 16:18 ; 2Nephi 5:15 ; Ether 7:9), -----even though, "Iron remained unknown in the Americas until the arrival of Columbus" in 1492 A.D., and the forging of actual steel is much more recent. 9. - The Book of Mormon says that people it describes in the Americas (in about 90 BC) possessed and used silk (Alma 4:6 ; Ether 9:17 & 11:24), --whereas it has not been shown that silk was ever known by people in the Americas before the arrival of Europeans after the time of Columbus. 10. - The Book of Mormon supposedly predicts (in about 90 BC) that Jesus was to be born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10) --whereas Jesus was actually born in Bethlehem (Luke 2:4) as accurately predicted in Micah 5:2. 11. - The Book of Mormon says that believers were called "Christians" back in 73 BC (per Alma 46:15) --whereas the Bible (in Acts 11:26) states this first occurred in Antioch, which was in about 35 AD. 12. - No ancient copies (before the 1800s A.D.) of The Book of Mormon have been found anywhere, and opened for scholarly inspection ...including the golden "plates" that Joseph Smith supposedly used. Then there’s this: Time and time again we find that the history in the Bible is confirmed by the discoveries of archaeology, especially over the past century. Reformed Jewish scholar, Dr. Nelson Glueck, arguably one of the greatest authorities on the archaeology of Israel, once said, "No archaeological discovery has ever controverted a single properly understood biblical statement. ...Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries." To continue this same line of thought, Dr. Merrill Unger continues, "Old Testament archaeology has rediscovered whole nations, resurrected important peoples, and in a most astonishing manner filled in historical gaps, adding immeasurably to the knowledge of biblical backgrounds." So, as a result of many examples over many years of archaeological and historical research, the Bible's reliability concerning history has repeatedly been confirmed, and never clearly contradicted. The Bible is increasingly confirmed in its historical facticity as further archaeological discoveries are made down through the years. William R. Albright, professor of Semitics at Johns Hopkins University, became one of the most prominent and respected archaeologists of modern times, and after working at many sites in and around Israel, he states: "Discovery after discovery has established the accuracy of innumerable details, and has brought increased recognition of the value of the Bible as a source of history." Yale archaeologist Millar Burrows maintains, "On the whole, however, archaeological work has unquestionably strengthened confidence in the reliability of the scriptural record. More than one archaeologist has found his respect for the Bible increased by the experience of excavation in Palestine." Concerning the text of the Bible itself, Burrows says, "Such evidence as archaeology has afforded thus far, especially by providing additional and older manuscripts of the books of the Bible, strengthens our confidence in the accuracy with which the text has been transmitted through the centuries." Because of abundant historical facticity of the Biblical accounts, the field of Biblical archaeology is so big that there are whole journals and university departments dedicated to its study in various places around the world. The confirmation of the historicity of much of what the Bible records is very solid, and grows constant. |
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#113 | ||
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
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#114 | |||
War Child
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Location: Frontios
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However, it is a book on morality and the relationship one should have with God, which I think most people consider to be the most important aspect of the Bible. And if that's the case, there's no reason that Mormons cannot express a relationship with God that's specific to their scriptural and faith traditions. Whether or not it corresponds to accurate history is secondary to issues of morality. |
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#115 | |||
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
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#116 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
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Listen, I know both of you, Ormus and A_Wanderer, have brilliant minds. I've always respected your intellect. Frankly, I haven't spent much time reading into the topics of the flood and everything. I know many Christians who consider these stories as myth, too. If the only truth in them is moral, than so be it. I haven't personally arrived at that conclusion yet one way or the other. I can totally see immense value in what AEON said. I've heard that before and it makes sense.
My point though has been to compare the Bible with the book of Mormon. Jesus. Paul. Moses. etc. truly existed. There's proof of this outside of the Bible. Yet, the book of Mormon doesn't have this. Nothing unique to it has been found! Even the fact that it has so much unique to it raises questions. There's texts outside of the Bible that talk about the whole world turning dark around the same time Christ died on the cross. This observation is included in the Gospels. Texts outside of the Gospels confirm it. There's numerous prophecies made in the OT and fulfilled in the NT, and they're not things Christ could just do or say after reading the OT. There's something going on here. The book of mormon is completely different. In fact, it's been rewritten many times. Parts of it at least. Also, the other thing is they claim to be Christian when the two faiths share many, many different core beliefs. Yes, we're all free to believe what we want to. I'm thankful I live in a country where I can do so. Tremendously thankful. I know there are many people who believe many different things than me, and I totally respect that right and the people themselves. However, I can't believe that all faiths lead to the same place, when there's so many vast differences. Just like many fight for truth in science and history, I believe there are spiritual truths, too. And just like there's fraud and counterfiets in science and history that are called out, they should be called out in the spiritual aspect of life, too. And some of it does come down to faith, but there's a difference between the faiths that have an historical element to them and those that have none at all. Scientology -- written by a science fiction writer who once said the best way to make money was to start a religion. ![]() What's going on here? |
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#117 | |
Blue Crack Addict
Join Date: Apr 2002
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#118 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
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First, here’s the Gospel accounts of it.
Matthew 27:45 “From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.” and Luke 23:44 “It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour,” Then there was an historian named Thallus, who wrote in 52 A.D. a history of the eastern Mediterranean world since the Trojan War. His work was apparently lost, but quoted by a man named Julius Africanus in about 221 A.D. and the quoted part referred to this darkness. Thallus explained the phenomena as a solar eclipse. "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." Africanus then makes the point that it couldn’t have been a solar eclipse given the time of year the crucifixion took place. Then there’s this other guy, Paul Maier, who wrote a book in the 1960s called “Pontius Pilate.” He wrote, “This phenomenon, evidently, was visible in Rome, Athens and other Mediterranean cities. According to Tertullian . . . it was a “cosmic” or “world event.” Phlegon, a Greek author from Caria writing a chronology soon after 137 A.D., reported that in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (i.e., 33 A.D.) there was “the greatest eclipse of the sun” and that “it became night in the sixth hour of the day (i.e., noon) so that stars even appeared in the heavens. There was a great earthquake in Bithynia, and many things were overturned in Nicaea.” I pulled some of this stuff from the Web and “The Case for Christ.” |
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#119 | |
Blue Crack Addict
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Yeah and I don't appreciate the double teaming snide comments either. |
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#120 | |
ONE
love, blood, life Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
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While there are many Mormons that serve in public office both Republican and Democrat while their constituents love and support them you appear to have a narrower view of them. I have many friends of many different faiths: Bahai Hindu Unity Muslim Judiasm Catholic Methodist Baptist Being Mormon we're taught to love and appreciate all people and all different faiths as that is where a person is at in their spiritual growth. While there area approx. 6000 different Christian Churches in America that differ with one another and some bicker back and forth, our view is their is room for all. We also believe that during the Millennium that there will be many churches of different faiths on the earth. Perhaps during that time religous philosophies will mesh together as Christ will sort things out until we all come to a unity of faith. I don't think a devout Catholic, Lutheran or Jehovah Witness is going to burn because their religous belief doesn't perfectly align with mine. I think that displays insecurity. I appreciate the astute and kind words from people such as: Melon/Ormushead Dread Varitek runbyu1 U2Democrat blueyedpoet verte76 nbcrusader Macfistowannabe Zoocoustic And as far as splitting hairs over doctrinal issues I really don't need to do that nor do I label ppl who aren't members of my church. The LDS faith works for me brings me contentment, offers more of life's answers for me and has helped me love my fellowman even more. out, dbs |
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