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Old 12-28-2007, 02:41 PM   #441
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I am staunchly pro-choice during the first trimester and there is no compromising there for me at all. Any effort to criminalize abortion in this respect is unacceptable in my eyes.

Obviously the key is to minimize the number of abortions - I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with that. To me this entails comprehensive and mandatory sexual education in schools, from a young age. Abstinence classes are ridiculous and should be laughed out of town. To me it also entails ignoring the Catholic church and every other church which advocates against the use of condoms and birth control. This is particularly important in the third world where churches have much more power among local populations and governments often bend to their whims.

It entails requiring, as a matter of law, that every pharmacist issues out birth control or relinquishes his license. It should be a condition of licensing that you cannot impose your religious beliefs on patients and go against the wishes of their doctors. At the very least, the pharmacist should have an employee present, at all times, who has no issue dispensing such medications. It is irrelevant that they are running a private business; the fact they are licensed by the state and as such enjoy a competitive advantage means they should be subject to regulations.

It entails making birth control and condoms more readily available to youth and cheaper to obtain. There is no reason why young women should be paying $30+ per month for the pill.

It entails perhaps a national childcare system (of course you're in the US so there will be screams of socialism as is often the case), better support for single mothers whom we want to be raising all these cute fetuses, an infusion of cash into school boards with large percentages of single parents, free and comprehensive healthcare for all children, and many other proposals.

But even if all of those were implemented, abortion must stay legal in the first trimester. Period.
I agree with a large chunk of that, actually. I am fully, 100% in favor of birth control, and it's a hugely important (and realistic) factor in minimizing abortion on a large scale. The only question is what it would take to implement many of these ideas and how long of a wait it would be.
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Old 12-28-2007, 02:43 PM   #442
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The huge percentage of the country who either think the system needs tweaking or to be thrown out entirely and rebuilt, for one.
How is that a hole in the system?
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Old 12-28-2007, 02:45 PM   #443
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Originally posted by LemonMelon


I agree with a large chunk of that, actually. I am fully, 100% in favor of birth control, and it's a hugely important (and realistic) factor in minimizing abortion on a large scale. The only question is what it would take to implement many of these ideas and how long of a wait it would be.
Well you could probably never implement most of those in the US.

But that doesn't mean we should be draconian and instead criminalize abortion.
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Old 12-28-2007, 02:54 PM   #444
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How is that a hole in the system?
Holes are a reason to do some tweaking. While it may not, in and of itself, be a hole, it's certainly reason enough to do the necessary tweaking. You simply can't have the country torn in half over one issue. It should have been resolved to general satisfaction ages ago.
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Old 12-28-2007, 02:55 PM   #445
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But there's no way to do it other than the way we're doing it right now. How can we resolve something that's best solution is currently in place?
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:01 PM   #446
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But there's no way to do it other than the way we're doing it right now. How can we resolve something that's best solution is currently in place?
But that's the thing. The majority believe that there are better ways of going about it. Even if we keep the same laws in place, making some little changes like the ones antiram mentioned could make all the difference. At the moment, nothing is going to change; people will just have to passively accept how things are.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:10 PM   #447
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Originally posted by LemonMelon

Even if we keep the same laws in place, making some little changes like the ones antiram mentioned could make all the difference. At the moment, nothing is going to change; people will just have to passively accept how things are.
Who do you think is holding up all the progress on sex education and birth control?

Hint: it's not the pro-choice crowd.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:12 PM   #448
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Who do you think is holding up all the progress on sex education and birth control?

Hint: it's not the pro-choice crowd.
My Christian brethren are not the easiest people to defend sometimes. Philly's in the same boat I am; he's Catholic, after all.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:15 PM   #449
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Originally posted by LemonMelon

Philly's in the same boat I am; he's Catholic, after all.
So am I. Perhaps that surprises you.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:20 PM   #450
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So am I. Perhaps that surprises you.
It's not that surprising. What I find more surprising is that there are still so many folks out there who are adamantly opposed to birth control.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:27 PM   #451
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But that's the thing. The majority believe that there are better ways of going about it. Even if we keep the same laws in place, making some little changes like the ones antiram mentioned could make all the difference. At the moment, nothing is going to change; people will just have to passively accept how things are.
This is true. They believe there are better ways. But they don't know any better ways. They have no suggestions past "Ban it!"
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:32 PM   #452
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


This is true. They believe there are better ways. But they don't know any better ways. They have no suggestions past "Ban it!"
Does that mean, however, that conversations like these are just a waste of time, as there can be no improvements made anyway? I think they can still be of value (as much value as an internet political discussion can be, of course).
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:34 PM   #453
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They could be of value if viable solutions were presented, yes. I certainly don't think the discussions should stop. But realistically, without even a suggestion of a real, feasible plan, is it really even a real discussion of alternatives?
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:38 PM   #454
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But realistically, without even a suggestion of a real, feasible plan, is it really even a real discussion of alternatives?
No. It wouldn't be. However, since actual alternatives are being required in this discussion, I would put it above 95% of all other abortion "debates" (RE: 3-4 pages of swearing and moral righteousness) I have partaken of.
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:40 PM   #455
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I agree. I'm just saying that until the pro-life movement comes up with even a starting point of an actual implementation plan, it's not hard to understand why nothing's changing.
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Old 12-28-2007, 05:41 PM   #456
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I love you all. I do.
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Old 12-28-2007, 06:26 PM   #457
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This guy's such a lightweight on foreign policy:

Quote:
Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee said Friday there are more Pakistanis in the U.S. illegally than any other nationality except those from Latin America.
They're not even in the top 25 nationalities caught.

Quote:
Homeland Security officials say there are more people in the U.S. illegally from the Caribbean, China and Canada than from Pakistan. Officials deported 435 Pakistanis in the 2007 fiscal year, which ran from Oct. 1, 2006 to Sept. 30, 2007, according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement statistics. During this time, 766 people from China were deported, as were 521 from the Philippines.
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Old 12-28-2007, 06:41 PM   #458
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And "Latin America" isn't a nation.
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Old 12-31-2007, 10:11 AM   #459
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Huckabee stands by 'Christ' comment

By LIZ SIDOTI, Associated Press Writer Sun Dec 30

Mike Huckabee, a Republican relying on support from religious conservatives in Thursday's hard-fought presidential caucuses, on Sunday stood by a decade-old comment in which he said, "I hope we answer the alarm clock and take this nation back for Christ."

In a television interview, the ordained Southern Baptist minister and former Arkansas governor made no apologies for the 1998 comment made at a Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Salt Lake City.

"It was a speech made to a Christian gathering, and, and certainly that would be appropriate to be said to a gathering of Southern Baptists," Huckabee said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

He gave the speech the same year he endorsed the Baptist convention's statement of beliefs on marriage that "a wife is to submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ." Huckabee and his wife, Janet, signed a full-page ad in USA Today in support of the statement with 129 other evangelical leaders.

The former governor, who rallied Christian evangelicals to make him a surprise force in Iowa, has put his faith front and center in his campaign. His stump speech sounds like a pastor's pitch from a pulpit. Campaign ads emphasize faith and call him a Christian leader. He frequently quotes Bible verses.

As his fortunes have improved, Huckabee has faced a drumbeat of questions and criticism about his gubernatorial record and the role of faith in his administration. He also has made some missteps while trying to fend off a challenge — and critical TV ads — from Mitt Romney, a former Massachusetts governor and Mormon whose faith unsettles some religious conservatives.

Four days before the caucuses Thursday, a new poll found Huckabee's surge may have stalled; his once double-digit lead over Romney has evaporated. Private polling shows the two in a dead heat.

The television interview was Huckabee's only campaign appearance Sunday.

With the media throng following him having grown immensely, Huckabee scrapped a public event at a church in favor of attending a private service closed to reporters. Instead of courting voters, he hunkered down to film new TV ads, perhaps spots responding to Romney's barrage of critical commercials.

As recently as Friday, Huckabee insisted he wanted to run a positive campaign. He also reserved the right to respond aggressively.

"Hopefully we'll just be talking about issues," Romney told reporters Sunday. In contrast to Huckabee, Romney had a full slate of events on a bus tour of eastern Iowa.

In the NBC interview, Huckabee, a longtime opponent of legalized abortion, said he does not believe that women should be punished for undergoing the procedure, but that doctors might need to face sanctions.

"I don't know that you'd put him in prison, but there's something to me untoward about a person who has committed himself to healing people and to making people alive who would take money to take an innocent life and to make that life dead," Huckabee said.

He also argued that his emphasis on his Christian beliefs does not mean he's alienating atheists. He said, if elected, he would have no problem appointing atheists to government posts.

"The key issue of real faith is that it never can be forced on someone. And never would I want to use the government institutions to impose mine or anybody else's faith or to restrict," Huckabee said.

Those skeptical of the role of faith in his presidency, he said, should look at his record in Arkansas.

"I didn't ever propose a bill that we would remove the Capitol dome of Arkansas and replace it with a steeple," he said. "You know, we didn't do tent revivals on the grounds of the Capitol."
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:03 PM   #460
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Uhoh, he's running a marathon in a state that has gay marriage.

Play of the Day: Huckabee's run

December 31, 2007

DES MOINES, Iowa --For Mike Huckabee, campaign activities in Iowa took a backseat Monday to training for the Boston Marathon.

Despite a temperature of 16 degrees, the Republican presidential candidate set off around a Des Moines lake for a 30-minute run that covered about three miles.

"This really is insane, isn't it?" said Huckabee, wearing running gear in the University of Iowa's black-and-gold color scheme.

"I go in freezing weather, but it's never this cold in Little Rock, so you know this is as cold as I probably will have run in," said the former Arkansas governor.

Before he began his jaunt, Huckabee asked his running companions, "Are we sure this path is clear, that there's not ice patches on it? Cause 'Slip Sliding Away,' it's a great song, but it's not a good campaign theme."

Of course, being in Iowa, candidates aren't immune from campaign questions even when they're on frigid runs.

Just as he was hitting the trail, a man who manages a halfway house asked Huckabee about prisoner rehabilitation.

"One of the reasons I get into a whole lot of trouble is because I do believe that you don't just keep punishing people forever," responded Huckabee, whose record on pardons has been criticized by some of his rivals.

Huckabee said the reason to punish should be to correct.

"We lock up a lot of people that we're mad at, not the ones we're really afraid of," he said. "And we ought to lock up the ones we're afraid of, but the ones we're just mad at we might find better ways" of correction.

The man told Huckabee: "If you're going to continue on that path, you've got my vote."

Huckabee said he was glad to hear it, "cause I would have hated to give that answer in front of all these cameras and lose your vote."

Asked about his expectations for the marathon on Patriots' Day, a Monday in April.

"Uh, finish before Tuesday," he said.
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