so...Mike Huckabee. - Page 20 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-26-2007, 05:22 PM   #381
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:51 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
Well, when people talk about the "right to life" for a fetus, they mean the right for the opportunity of the fetus to be born and have a chance.
And why does that "right" mean more than the woman's right to not be pregnant?

Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26

And almost everyone agrees that abortions should be allowed when dealing with pregnant women who cannot give birth for medical reasons.
NO THEY DON'T. Jesus, do some research before you post. And many of the people who do say this are saying it to gain political points. They have no real plan to administer such a system.

Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
So, the right to life is the right for a chance to live, which has already been granted to the woman by being born.
And may be taken away from her. Do I need to post pictures of the dead women from illegal abortions?


Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26

To give the fetus a chance to be born, I imagine.
And never mind the risk to the health of the mother, even if it is only mental health. she'll get over it. Right? Because a fetus should have the "right" to be born no matter what.


Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26

Your third statement there is an incorrect generalization, because almost everyone agrees about the medical issues.
See above.
Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26

Again, to your fourth statement, I think if you truly believe that a fetus is living, you wouldn't see it as a gender issue. Not saying that it isn't a gender issue, but some people see it differently.
And why do these "some people" get to make the laws? Even if these "some people" cannot ever ever become pregnant?
Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26

And for the right reasons, I imagine, again, it's about the fetus and not you.
Why does a fetus get more consideration than me, a living breathing woman?
Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26

Not everything I'm saying I agree with,
Thank God.

Again, you really need to do some research on this.
__________________

martha is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 05:28 PM   #382
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,725
Local Time: 09:51 AM
It's not accurate to call a fetus anything else but a living being, either, even in the first trimester. It is living, but it isn't living on its own. To my knowledge, any being is either dead or alive. Only because it does need the mother to be kept alive, its a living being. Even a sperm is technically alive.

It's been mentioned in other threads before, but so far not really deeply discussed as far as I recall the discussions: Abortions in the first trimester perfectly legal, and after that only if medically necessary. And a focus on education on how to prevent pregnance in the first place, not on how to stay away from sins.

We shouldn't argue in a way that we perceive everyone on the other side of the topic as being a stereotypical South Dakotaan pro-lifer or where ever they come from pro-choicer, but try to take a more moderate view of the argument (otherwise we won't get anywhere, as they are not arguing rantionally).
For example, if you think of phillyfan's previous posts on this topic you will remember that he certainly isn't ""taking comfort in his maleness and youth" on this topic.

An abolition of abortion is about the worst you can do, and anyone who is seeing a woman as a vessel clearly has a very naive and shallow view of the whole topic.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the majority of people is thinking like that, so we shouldn't make them the rule, just as we shouldn't paint every pro-lifer as someone who cheerfully welcomes every abortion or is taking pleasure in high abortion rates. Those are by far the exception.

It's right, in the case of abortion no one should tell another person what she has to do with her body, especially if it is in danger. But I also think that during pregnancy the fetus develops to a point where you can't simply say "Well, it's not a living, breathing being, yet.", hence I'm in favor of how abortion law has developed in Europe.

Ron Paul argues that in his experience there has never been a case where an abortion was medically necessary. However, obviously those cases exist as there are a few late-term abortions in Europe each year, either because the baby was diagnosed severely disabled or because of a risk for the mother.
__________________

Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 05:29 PM   #383
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega

Ron Paul argues that in his experience there has never been a case where an abortion was medically necessary.
Then he, unlike you, is full of shit.
martha is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 05:32 PM   #384
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,725
Local Time: 09:51 AM
Yes, I was puzzled when I read that as well.
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 05:39 PM   #385
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
[B]
Abortions in the first trimester perfectly legal,/B]
Yes. For now. There are many who want to change this. For instance, most, if not all the Republican candidates for president.
Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
We shouldn't argue in a way that we perceive everyone on the other side of the topic as being a stereotypical South Dakotaan pro-lifer or where ever they come from pro-choicer
You're absolutely right.
Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega

An abolition of abortion is about the worst you can do
We know this to be true. Many Americans disagree.


Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega

It's right, in the case of abortion no one should tell another person what she has to do with her body, especially if it is in danger. But I also think that during pregnancy the fetus develops to a point where you can't simply say "Well, it's not a living, breathing being, yet.",
I agree 100%.

The reason I refer to gender and youth: Many men, especially young men with limited experience, have such a rosy view of the abortion issue. They think that because they don't think it should be legislated that no one else does. They don't understand that this has been going on for decades, and it didn't start with Roe v. Wade. That don't understand that women's access to birth control was limited and still is; that many of these same "pro-life" people really do want to limit access to birth control. They don't feel it because they will never ever have to allow a stranger access to their health records. They just don't get it, yet they're the loudest here in FYM about how we should "see the other side."
martha is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 05:53 PM   #386
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha


Be against it all you want. But please don't tell the women who need the procedure that somehow your opinions on their medical decisions matter more.
If they NEED the procedure for health reasons, then they should get it. I know you are going to ask me, who gets to decide these health reasons. It should be up to the doctor and the patient. But besides that, I don't think partial birth abortion should be allowed for any other reason besides a medical reason.
Infinity is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 05:57 PM   #387
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha


It's a limited value, then. If you feel you have a right to determine what happens to the woman carrying the fetus just because she's now a vessel, then you value the fetus more than the living, breathing woman. Why do you get to make those decisions for a stranger? Why does she have to prove to you, or your representative (a doctor, a panel of strangers appointed by lawmakers) that the pregnancy will not be in her best interests? Why is it anybody's business but hers? Why is it your business?
Okay then what about after a baby is born. What if there was a law that says for up to one week after the birth of the baby, the mother has the right to decide whether or not she wants to keep it or put it to sleep. Just because that isn't allowed does that mean that the baby is more valuable than the woman? No. So I think that partial birth abortion shouldn't be allowed at all (unless there is a health risk for the mother). But does that mean I think that the fetus is automatically more valuable than the woman? No. In fact, the woman is more valuable since her life comes first. If there is a threat to her health, then the fetus gets aborted. So who's life is more valuable?
Infinity is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 06:02 PM   #388
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha


Then he, unlike you, is full of shit.
Back that up for me. Show me proof of a case that Ron Paul has seen in which he saw an abortion that WAS medically necessary.
Infinity is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 06:10 PM   #389
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,885
Local Time: 02:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha


It's a limited value, then. If you feel you have a right to determine what happens to the woman carrying the fetus just because she's now a vessel, then you value the fetus more than the living, breathing woman. Why do you get to make those decisions for a stranger? Why does she have to prove to you, or your representative (a doctor, a panel of strangers appointed by lawmakers) that the pregnancy will not be in her best interests? Why is it anybody's business but hers? Why is it your business?
Are your questions an answer to mine.

I am simply stating that I believe that the fetus has a right to life unless the mothers life is in danger. Period.

That does not place the mother's life above the fetus.

If I understand you, the woman should always be able to destroy the fetus, no matter what. I guess ultimately that does place the woman above the fetus, which is fine.

I do not agree with this, nor does it make me value a fetus above a mother.

Ultimately I find your position more distrespectful of life. newborn baby cannot survive on its own either. Maybe placing the burden of providing for the newborn life is too much. They should be terminated too if the mother feels it too burdonsome.
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 06:11 PM   #390
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 03:51 AM
My greatest opposition to the pro-life movement as a whole is that they tend to behave as if life begins at conception and ends at birth. That is when these babies become a welfare problem, when we'll cut social programs and force single mothers to work 3 jobs because that's "uniquely American" (per President Bush), when we'll underfund inner city schools where most of these kids will inevitably end up, and then when they're teenagers we'll tell them all about abstinence while our pharmacists refuse to give out birth control and while the Catholic church crows about condoms.

There is a hell of a lot more concern about fetuses, zygotes and stem cells on a plastic plate than kids of mothers whose choice they're looking to take away.
anitram is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 06:18 PM   #391
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,885
Local Time: 02:51 AM
I agree with pretty much everything you have said Anitram.

Does that make the right to life crowd wrong on the abortion stance?

Or is it a shortcoming on how we deal with people in society?
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 06:19 PM   #392
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
My greatest opposition to the pro-life movement as a whole is that they tend to behave as if life begins at conception and ends at birth. That is when these babies become a welfare problem, when we'll cut social programs and force single mothers to work 3 jobs because that's "uniquely American" (per President Bush), when we'll underfund inner city schools where most of these kids will inevitably end up, and then when they're teenagers we'll tell them all about abstinence while our pharmacists refuse to give out birth control and while the Catholic church crows about condoms.

There is a hell of a lot more concern about fetuses, zygotes and stem cells on a plastic plate than kids of mothers whose choice they're looking to take away.
I understand your point. I am all for birth control and birth control education in school. Speaking of that, I also think it is very important to teach personal finance in our schools.
Infinity is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 06:19 PM   #393
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 02:51 AM
so... Mike Huckabee

Or is this abortion vs Ron Paul?
BVS is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 06:22 PM   #394
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 03:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I agree with pretty much everything you have said Anitram.

Does that make the right to life crowd wrong on the abortion stance?

Or is it a shortcoming on how we deal with people in society?
To be honest, it makes me think they are wrong on the stance, because I don't think that they are so much acting in good faith on behalf of the fetus, as much as they are acting to control women and their sexual behaviour. When you no longer care about the child after it is born, when you legislate in a way to cut social programs from these children, when you don't care that we have hundreds of thousands of deadbeat fathers, when you are against sexual education and birth control, that makes me question your motives. And if I don't believe that they are really advocating for life, then I tend to conclude that their position is either faulty or entirely disingenuous.
anitram is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 06:23 PM   #395
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 03:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
so... Mike Huckabee

Or is this abortion vs Ron Paul?
Do you think Mike Huckabee's voice sounds like a cartoon dog's?

Hey, it's as good as question as any on this thread!
anitram is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 07:04 PM   #396
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


To be honest, it makes me think they are wrong on the stance, because I don't think that they are so much acting in good faith on behalf of the fetus, as much as they are acting to control women and their sexual behaviour.
While there may be people who are just wanting to control women's sexual behavior, all pro-life people aren't like that. I personally don't think prostitution should be illegal because that truly is the women's body and her own right.
Infinity is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 07:15 PM   #397
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98
I know you are going to ask me, who gets to decide these health reasons. It should be up to the doctor and the patient.
Then you don't think it should be legislated?


Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98
But besides that, I don't think partial birth abortion should be allowed for any other reason besides a medical reason.
I really should stop answering you until you can do some research. Can you find a case where it wasn't medically necessary?
martha is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 07:17 PM   #398
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98


Back that up for me. Show me proof of a case that Ron Paul has seen in which he saw an abortion that WAS medically necessary.
I'm not the one who posted that little tidbit of information. It was Vincent Vega.

I personally don't give a rat's ass what Ron Paul thinks in medically necessary. He thinks I should be forced to carry a child to term. That's all that matters. Ask Romanians in the 1980s how that went.
martha is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 07:20 PM   #399
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Maybe placing the burden of providing for the newborn life is too much. They should be terminated too if the mother feels it too burdonsome.
Wow. Haven't heard baby-killer in ages.
martha is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 07:31 PM   #400
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox

Ultimately I find your position more distrespectful of life.
Of course I am! I'd rather see women get safe and legal abortions rather than bleed to death from the illegal ones. That makes me serenely not "pro-life"! Goodness, even I knew that.

Because we all know that the "pro-lifers" could give a flying fuck about those whores who just want an abortion because they had sex and they shouldn't have.
__________________

martha is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×