so...Mike Huckabee. - Page 19 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-25-2007, 08:12 AM   #361
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 07:27 AM
Huckabee's trying to force his religious views on everyone. That's not right.
__________________

verte76 is offline  
Old 12-25-2007, 12:04 PM   #362
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,601
Local Time: 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98


Some people believe that life begins at conception.
I believe a large portion of them really do not

they just say they believe this

they really want to control other peoples sexual activities
by making sexual relations have unnecessary consequences (potentially)
__________________

deep is offline  
Old 12-25-2007, 10:48 PM   #363
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98


I guess they just do.
Not good enough for me. If you want to make your beliefs law you need something to back it up...
BVS is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 12:58 AM   #364
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Not good enough for me. If you want to make your beliefs law you need something to back it up...
Oh no, i'm not saying for myself. I personally don't like abortion, especially partial birth abortion. And I have no opinion on life beginning at conception.
Infinity is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 01:46 AM   #365
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98


Oh no, i'm not saying for myself. I personally don't like abortion, especially partial birth abortion.
Find one person who "likes" it. Just one. We'll wait.
martha is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 11:12 AM   #366
Refugee
 
Infinity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,188
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha


Find one person who "likes" it. Just one. We'll wait.
OKay, so even if people don't like it or like it, my point is that i'm against partial birth abortion.
Infinity is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 11:25 AM   #367
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,443
Local Time: 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha


And some people don't.
Some people didn't think black people qualified as living beings either. Did we listen to them?
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 11:46 AM   #368
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 02:27 AM
Kind of an apples to oranges comparison, don't you think?
BVS is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 11:50 AM   #369
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,443
Local Time: 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Kind of an apples to oranges comparison, don't you think?
Not really. Martha and Infinitum were making their points based on prevalent perspectives/opinions of whether life exists as a basis for defining law. My point was that the whole "some people don't think a baby is/isn't alive in the womb" isn't really a sufficient basis for legislation on either side of the equation, since it's failed us in the past.
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 12:01 PM   #370
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


My point was that the whole "some people don't think a baby is/isn't alive in the womb" isn't really a sufficient basis for legislation on either side of the equation, since it's failed us in the past.
But you compared a living breathing human being that can live on it's own to a developing fetus that if taken out of the womb can't live on it's own. To me they are not the same, to the majority of scientist they are not the same.

So the comparison was a faulty one. An opinion that a black person isn't a living being is based on hate, nothing else. The issue of when a fetus is a living child has nothing to do with that at all, not even close.
BVS is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 12:27 PM   #371
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
My point was that the whole "some people don't think a baby is/isn't alive in the womb" isn't really a sufficient basis for legislation on either side of the equation, since it's failed us in the past.
What a cop-out. Black Americans were living, breathing people just like white Americans.

If it makes you feel better about caring more for a zygote than the living breathing woman surrounding it, then have at it.

I really don't care all that much if anyone here is anti-choice or not. Just as long as you only enforce your opinions on your own body and not mine.
martha is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 12:30 PM   #372
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Some people didn't think black people qualified as living beings either. Did we listen to them?
Yes. People did all the time. Then people realized that living breathing people were more important than any misguided ideals they were clinging to. Someday the folks who think that the "liberties" of a fetus outweigh my liberties as a human will be just as reviled as the people who thought that black Americans weren't fully people.
martha is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 12:31 PM   #373
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Infinitum98
, my point is that i'm against partial birth abortion.
Be against it all you want. But please don't tell the women who need the procedure that somehow your opinions on their medical decisions matter more.
martha is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 02:59 PM   #374
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,885
Local Time: 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha

Someday the folks who think that the "liberties" of a fetus outweigh my liberties as a human will be just as reviled as the people who thought that black Americans weren't fully people.
So would you be against abortion if there was no medical reason for a mother to have one?

I am confused because if there were no medical reason, why should the value people place on a fetus be any less.

I would support an abortion if the doctor determined there was a valid medical reason for the mother to have one. That is my value of the person over the fetus.

Why is it so wrong to value the fetus up to that point?
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 03:58 PM   #375
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I would support an abortion if the doctor determined there was a valid medical reason for the mother to have one. That is my value of the person over the fetus.

It's a limited value, then. If you feel you have a right to determine what happens to the woman carrying the fetus just because she's now a vessel, then you value the fetus more than the living, breathing woman. Why do you get to make those decisions for a stranger? Why does she have to prove to you, or your representative (a doctor, a panel of strangers appointed by lawmakers) that the pregnancy will not be in her best interests? Why is it anybody's business but hers? Why is it your business?
martha is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 04:06 PM   #376
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha
It's a limited value, then. If you feel you have a right to determine what happens to the woman carrying the fetus just because she's now a vessel, then you value the fetus more than the living, breathing woman.
I don't think that's true. I don't think someone believing a fetus to be a living thing is trying to devalue the woman and make her a "vessel." I think if you believe a fetus to be a living thing, you also believe that allowing abortion is allowing people to choose to end a life. So, while I think abortion shouldn't be a federal government issue, I do think you've oversimplified and exxagerated the pro-life view.
phillyfan26 is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 04:23 PM   #377
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
I don't think that's true. I don't think someone believing a fetus to be a living thing is trying to devalue the woman and make her a "vessel."
Then why does the fetus have more "right-to-life" than the woman? Why do strangers get to make decisions for the woman now that she's pregnant? Has her value as an individual suddenly changed?


Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
I think if you believe a fetus to be a living thing, you also believe that allowing abortion is allowing people to choose to end a life.
And so very many people who think this think it's okay for them to interfere with a stranger's life.


Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26

So, while I think abortion shouldn't be a federal government issue, I do think you've oversimplified and exxagerated the pro-life view.
Scare yourself shitless and do some research on the people who think my uterus is their business. Then sit back from the comfort of maleness and youth and tell me that again. The few who don't think it should be a government issue are rare. Take a visit to South Dakota and see how many of you there are. See if I'm oversimplifying.
martha is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 04:33 PM   #378
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha
Then why does the fetus have more "right-to-life" than the woman? Why do strangers get to make decisions for the woman now that she's pregnant? Has her value as an individual suddenly changed?

And so very many people who think this think it's okay for them to interfere with a stranger's life.

Scare yourself shitless and do some research on the people who think my uterus is their business. Then sit back from the comfort of maleness and youth and tell me that again. The few who don't think it should be a government issue are rare. Take a visit to South Dakota and see how many of you there are. See if I'm oversimplifying.
Unless your definition of "right to life" is different from mine, your first part there doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think that's the motivation in every case. You can't paint every pro-life person with the same brush.

And I think your last paragraph is another case of painting every pro-lifer with the same brush. Also, I don't think accusing me of "taking comfort in my maleness and youth" has any relevance nor is an accurate statement. Just because there are some pro-lifers out there who do have that view for the wrong reasons doesn't mean you need to take it out on the other pro-lifers or me.
phillyfan26 is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 04:40 PM   #379
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
Unless your definition of "right to life" is different from mine, your first part there doesn't make sense to me.
Please clarify your definition then.

Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
I don't think that's the motivation in every case. You can't paint every pro-life person with the same brush.
Then what the hell are they doing?? What else is their motivation?


Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
And I think your last paragraph is another case of painting every pro-lifer with the same brush.
"Pro-life" people want women to have the babies no matter what. Period. The end. I really don't care why they think so. They don't have any business at all in my life. None at all.


Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
Also, I don't think accusing me of "taking comfort in my maleness and youth" has any relevance nor is an accurate statement.
Abortion is a female issue with no exceptions. NONE. The youth thing may have been a cheap shot, but I've been doing this longer than you and I know what these people are like.
Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
Just because there are some pro-lifers out there who do have that view for the wrong reasons
What are the right reasons?
martha is offline  
Old 12-26-2007, 04:57 PM   #380
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha
Please clarify your definition then.

Then what the hell are they doing?? What else is their motivation?

"Pro-life" people want women to have the babies no matter what. Period. The end. I really don't care why they think so. They don't have any business at all in my life. None at all.

Abortion is a female issue with no exceptions. NONE. The youth thing may have been a cheap shot, but I've been doing this longer than you and I know what these people are like.

What are the right reasons?
Well, when people talk about the "right to life" for a fetus, they mean the right for the opportunity of the fetus to be born and have a chance. And almost everyone agrees that abortions should be allowed when dealing with pregnant women who cannot give birth for medical reasons. So, the right to life is the right for a chance to live, which has already been granted to the woman by being born.

To give the fetus a chance to be born, I imagine.

Your third statement there is an incorrect generalization, because almost everyone agrees about the medical issues.

Again, to your fourth statement, I think if you truly believe that a fetus is living, you wouldn't see it as a gender issue. Not saying that it isn't a gender issue, but some people see it differently.

And for the right reasons, I imagine, again, it's about the fetus and not you.

Not everything I'm saying I agree with, but I'm saying I can see the merit and the reasoning behind these views, and I can respect them. As I can see the merit in your view that it's a woman's issue. However, I think it's important that both sides understand the other side and the different views. I think you are looking too much at a specific group of people with pro-life views and making one pro-life outlook the only pro-life outlook.
__________________

phillyfan26 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×