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Old 12-17-2007, 08:52 PM   #201
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I think what irks me is that to be a Democrat you have to pander to the left.

To be a republican you have to pander to the right.

Why the fuck can't you be a centrist?

Because the two sides dominate the party....

Forcing everyone to out christian out pro life out whatever each other to get the nomination.
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Old 12-17-2007, 08:59 PM   #202
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Why the fuck can't you be a centrist?
An honest question - why is being a centrist somehow better? I suppose you could argue that in the interest of getting things done, if everyone moved to the centre, it would be a lot more easier and we might have a more efficient system. But I'm not sure that centrism is really a desirable position to be. For example, the majority of greatest political achievements in Canada were made when we were solidly left. Generally we were more prosperous as well during those times. What would centrism have achieved? I don't think we'd see the same results.

I have respect for centrists; at the same time I feel that many times they stand for little more than political diplomacy. But as for actually putting forward great ideas, I find them lacking, because they seem very reluctant to put forth any kind of vision that might rock the boat even a bit. Progress is never made in such ways.
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:01 PM   #203
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more like fence-sitters?
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:16 PM   #204
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
more like fence-sitters?
You have the gift of brevity. I dig.
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:16 PM   #205
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
I think its too bad that we have to be tolorant of everything and anything the left feels we should tolerate, but the second anyone calls themself a Christian all that tolerance goes out the window.

I think it a shame democrats have to announce they are pro choice all the time to secure their fan base.


?

isn't the opposite true?

may God bless America?

could an atheist win office? a professed agnostic?

in the GOP, if someone doesn't profess Christ as their savior, and if the Democrats don't have some sort of childish "faith forum" to explain themselves to "people of faith," then they aren't considered candidates?

why does the GOP race look like a theological debate?

and just how did Harry Reid get so far in the Democratic party?
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:17 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I think what irks me is that to be a Democrat you have to pander to the left.

To be a republican you have to pander to the right.

Why the fuck can't you be a centrist?

Because the two sides dominate the party....

Forcing everyone to out christian out pro life out whatever each other to get the nomination.


i really dont think there's all that much of a Left in the US to begin with, at least not equivalent to the European left. how much time do the Greens get from HRC or Obama? how about the socialists?
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Old 12-17-2007, 10:48 PM   #207
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
more like fence-sitters?


That was unecessary.
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:18 PM   #208
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
more like fence-sitters?
"Fence-sitting" makes being a centrist sound like a fearful position. As if you're afraid of what could occur if you went on one side or the other. It really is a viable position to take, even if it isn't the most publicized.
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Old 12-18-2007, 01:08 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I think what irks me is that to be a Democrat you have to pander to the left.

To be a republican you have to pander to the right.

Why the fuck can't you be a centrist?

Because the two sides dominate the party....

Forcing everyone to out christian out pro life out whatever each other to get the nomination.
No one should pander, I agree. In fact I admire the Ron Paul's and the Kucinich's...

But the realist in me comes about when I vote.

It's a fucked up system, and until we find some way to break it down, I think many of us are going to feel somewhat dirty.
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:24 AM   #210
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Originally posted by martha
It's just too bad he felt he had to assure his voter base that he is indeed Christian.
With one glaring exception.
You tend to generalize too much. Just because he said he believes in Jesus in one quote out of thousands, doesn't mean he wants to assure his voter base that he is indeed Christian.

You may be a Democrat, but please don't make generalizations about Republicans. Just becasue some or many Republicans may be one way doesn't mean that all are. If Hillary Clinton had said she is Christian, i'm sure you wouldn't have minded at all. If Ron Paul had said he is Muslim, i'm sure you wouldn't have cared.

I'm not a Democrat, yet I don't generalize about all Democrats. There are some which I like, some which I don't. But I don't have this stubborn mindset that "all Democrats hate the rich," or whatever.

And what is this one glaring exception?
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Old 12-18-2007, 05:09 AM   #211
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I think what irks me is that to be a Democrat you have to pander to the left.

To be a republican you have to pander to the right.

Why the fuck can't you be a centrist?
Seems to me the Democrats do pander to the centre. I honestly don't consider them to be on the left side of the political spectrum. As a leftist, I'm very glad I don't live in the US because I don't believe either of the main parties represents a viable left option - and I'm not even radically left. I'm just a social democrat.

Also, for the Australians viewing this thread: SBS's subtle coverage of Huckabee as a kind of "only in America" politico-religious curiosity is awesome.
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:03 AM   #212
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Originally posted by Infinitum98


And what is this one glaring exception?
My personal liberty to control my own reproductive system. So much for "small government" there, eh?
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:07 AM   #213
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Originally posted by Infinitum98
Just becasue some or many Republicans may be one way doesn't mean that all are.
I know that. Remember, I said it was just a smart-ass comment, but then you posted a quote which sure went a long way toward validating what I said.

The level of offense taken indicates a touched nerve.
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Old 12-18-2007, 08:16 AM   #214
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MotherJones.com / washington_dispatch / 2007

Mike Huckabee: Playing Both Sides of the Pulpit
The candidate says he wants to unite the country. But in a 1998 book, Huckabee was a fierce culture warrior, equating environmentalism with pornography, homosexuality with necrophilia, and nonbelievers with evildoers.

David Corn
December 17 , 2007

At the last Republican presidential debate, former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee, who had surged into the lead in the Iowa polls, pitched himself as the potential president who could unite a nation divided. "I think the first priority of the next president is to be a president of all the United States," he said. "We are right now a very polarized country, and that polarized country has led to a paralyzed government. We've got Democrats who fight Republicans, liberals fighting conservatives, the left fights the right. Who's fighting for this country again?...We've got to be the united people of the United States."

In the days before this debate, Huckabee, a former Baptist minister, was hit with questions regarding his past remarks and positions on religion (in 1998 he said, "I hope we...take this nation back for Christ"), on AIDS (in 1992 he proposed that people with the disease be quarantined), and on the role of women in society (in 1998 he endorsed an ad affirming the Baptist teaching that a "wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband"). And Huckabee was obviously trying to come across as a friendly and reasonable fundamentalist who eschewed the politics of division. But not too long ago, Huckabee was quite willing to be divisive. In a 1998 book decrying American culture, Huckabee was no seeker of common ground. He drew stark lines, equating environmentalists with pornographers and homosexuality with pedophilia and necrophilia. He also declared that people who do not believe in God tend to be immoral and to engage in "destructive behavior." He drew a rather harsh picture of an American society starkly split between people of faith and those of a secular bent, with the latter being a direct and immediate threat to the nation.

The book, Kids Who Kill: Confronting Our Culture of Violence, was hardly a call to come together. Huckabee wrote it with George Grant in response to the March 24, 1998, school shooting in Jonesboro, Arkansas. The book was published in early June of that year, its cover featuring a blurry photograph of a young boy pointing a gun at the reader.

In Kids Who Kill, Huckabee argued that school shootings were the product of a society in decline, a decline marked (and caused) by abortion, pornography, media violence, out-of-wedlock sex, divorce, drug use, and, of course, homosexuality. Huckabee and his coauthor bemoaned the "demoralization of America," observing, "Despite all our prosperity, pomp, and power, the vaunted American experiment in liberty seems to be disintegrating before our very eyes." Huckabee, who was governor at the time and a well-known social conservative, blasted away at those whom he held responsible for America's ills, and he took a rather tough stand against government social programs and their advocates. In lamenting the "cultural conflicts" besetting the country, he wrote,

Abortion, environmentalism, AIDS, pornography, drug abuse, and homosexual activism have fragmented and polarized our communities.

Why was he lumping environmentalism with activities he considered sinful? He did not explain further. A few pages later, Huckabee complained,

It is now difficult to keep track of the vast array of publicly endorsed and institutionally supported aberrations—from homosexuality and pedophilia to sadomasochism and necrophilia.

Huckabee did not say what public endorsement of pedophilia or necrophilia he had in mind. But he did seem to be equating homosexuality with both.

Throughout the book, Huckabee warned of going soft on immorality. He slammed those Christians who accept a "misguided version of 'tolerance'" and do not voice outrage at cultural deterioration. Mocking such Christians, he huffed, "We don't want to offend anyone." He denounced what he termed "radical ideological secularism," and he declared, "in the name of civil liberties, cultural diversity, and political correctness, a radical agenda of willy-nilly moral corruption and ethical degeneration has pressed forward." Without identifying any secularists by name, he wailed,

The legal commitment of ideological secularism to any and all of the fanatically twisted fringes of American culture—pornographers, gay activists, abortionists, and other professional liberationists—is a pathetically self-defeating crusade that has confused liberty with license.

This is not the rhetoric of a fellow looking to heal divisions within American society. And Huckabee approvingly quoted a "pastor-patriot" of the early 1800s who said, "Every considerate friend of civil liberty, in order to be consistent with himself, must be the friend of the Bible." That's a rather fundamentalist definition of a civil libertarian.

In Kids Who Kill, Huckabee addressed the decline of manners and civil discourse in American life. He favorably cited the trenchant analysis of the modern media culture that Neil Postman, a liberal critic, presented in his book Amusing Ourselves to Death. Huckabee argued that the entertainment industry "is conditioning kids to kill." But he also groused about unnamed "modern government-sponsored social engineers," claiming that "virtually every dollar poured into" government social programs "has only made matters worse." With such a remark, he was planting himself firmly in the government-is-the-enemy camp.

Elsewhere in the book, Huckabee denounced no-fault divorce and claimed that "equality in the workplace has ironically worked against women in innumerable ways." Looking for an expert on this matter, he pointed to a 19th-century author named Peyton Moore, who once noted, "Whenever we attempt to muddy the distinctions—the God-given distinctions—between men and women, it is always the women who ultimately lose." He didn't say that women should stay at home. But he heaped scorn on those who advocate workplace equality for women.

So what to do about a culture that breeds kid killers? Faith is more important than policy or politics, Huckabee argued. The "Judeo-Christian religion," he wrote, states "that faith counteracts the destructive effects of sinful actions and activities." That's what you would expect a religious-minded person to believe. But Huckabee went further and declared that nonbelievers tend to be evildoers:

Men who have rejected God and do not walk in faith are more often than not immoral, impure, and improvident (Gal. 5:19-21). They are prone to extreme and destructive behavior, indulging in perverse vices and dissipating sensuality (1 Cor. 6:9-10). And they—along with their families and loved ones—are thus driven over the brink of destruction (Prov. 23:21).

Huckabee is certainly entitled to his religious beliefs and his own view of human nature. He is free to think that nonbelievers cannot be trusted. But should Huckabee be allowed to play both sides of the pulpit? Kids Who Kill presented a black-and-white perspective: environmentalists, homosexuals, civil libertarians, supporters of social programs, advocates of workplace equality, and nonbelievers are on the dark side and allied with the forces of decline; people who believe in the Bible are the decent Americans. In 1998, Huckabee was claiming a religion-oriented cultural war was under way in the United States and he was happy to be a warrior for his side. Now he says he wants to bring together a "polarized" society. His 1998 book—full of unforgiving rhetoric—indicates that Huckabee is more comfortable creating divides than bridging them.
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Old 12-18-2007, 08:23 AM   #215
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I can hear it now:
"That was ten years ago."
"Mother Jones is written by Godless liberals."
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Old 12-18-2007, 10:58 AM   #216
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No one will defend it(how can they) but they'll still vote for him.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:21 AM   #217
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So much for "small government" there, eh?
Unless you think one of the roles of the government is to defend the right of its citizens to life.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:39 AM   #218
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Seems to me the Democrats do pander to the centre. I honestly don't consider them to be on the left side of the political spectrum. As a leftist, I'm very glad I don't live in the US because I don't believe either of the main parties represents a viable left option - and I'm not even radically left. I'm just a social democrat.

Also, for the Australians viewing this thread: SBS's subtle coverage of Huckabee as a kind of "only in America" politico-religious curiosity is awesome.
I hate it that American politics is dominated by two parties. We don't have a viable third party for social democrats and other leftists.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:44 AM   #219
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Nutty fundamentalist? Believe it or not, many people like a candidate who is open about his faith. Case in point, Huckabee's rising numbers and the two victories by W.
Maybe so, but it's not something I like to see in a presidential candidate, personally.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:45 AM   #220
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He wanted to quarantine them!
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