SMELL OF BLOOD IN THE AIR

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by StarsnStripes:
That's all some of us did here, disagree with BLOCK.

The "some of us" probably doesn't include me. I did more than disagree with him. I vented. But this time I'm not gonna apologize. The anti-American rhetoric is getting old.

[melon]

Originally posted by StarsnStripes:
Get over yourself!

Ditto.

Melon



------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[ouizy]

BLOCK:

Your views are skewed and simply ignorant. I do not know if what you said comes from the age you are (I assume very young) or from your ability to live in a beautiful country that needs not worry about terrorism in your homeland.

To begin with, you should read the essay by a Canadian journalist named Gordon Sinclair. I have posted it under the name USA "The Good Neighbor". It speaks of how during every war, World and otherwise the USA has been there to help other countries in other countries. Yes, the USA may have had something to gain from this, but most likely it was helping other countries develop democratic lands so that they do not end up like regimes from the middle east where women are circumsized, made to wear veils, and are stoned to death if they walk outside without a male from their imeediate family. The parallels between fundamental extremist Islam and the Nazi party are clear and if they are not watched, reacted to, or fought World War Three will be here closer than most think (unless it has begun.)

For someone from a country whose borders are as strong as gauze to be criticizing the USA for its reaction, you should be ashamed of yourself. Many of the culprits in this disgusting act came through your country to get here.

I may be venting, and I may be mad to read your views on this, but please understand the direct analogy here is this: if I walked up to you (being a total stranger) and slapped you in the face, you would not look the other way.

It strikes closer to home as the first plane to hit the WTC flew over my head.

The office I work in overlooks the disaster site. It is immense, dense, and full of death.

The work I do is based in Canada and a Canadian colleague of mine brought up this point, what if this happened in Canada, what would/could your country do??? Either Canada would do nothing, as you suggest, or your government would have to rely on its allies (including the US) to fight its war for you. Shame.

Do not criticize the US response to this simply because we are able to respond to this.

Finally, do not criticize the US response, but more so AMERICANS because, need I remind you, YOU block, YOU too are the extreme fundamentalist Islamic's enemy, they do not segregate Americans from Canadians, but democratic, freedom loving people from male religious pshychotic zealots.

Again, shame on you. You do not need to know people who died in this tragedy to understand it, but you should respect those who do before you let your ignorance pervade forums like this.

-Ouizy

[ouizy]

America: The Good Neighbor

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional
Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it
was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward
was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of
Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United
States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
American communities were flattened by Tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, war- mongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is
gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar
build its own airplane. Does any other country in the
world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet,
the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why
don't they fly them? Why do all the International
lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about
American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -
not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
They are here on our streets, and most of them,
unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting
American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were
breaking down through age, it was the Americans who
rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the
New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old
caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to
the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me
even one time when someone else raced to the Americans
in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
to thumb their nose at The lands that are gloating
over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one
of those."

Stand proud, America!"


------------------
"...I'll see you again, when the stars fall from the sky, and the the moon has turned red over One Tree Hill..."

NYC RIP

[Rono]

Originally posted by StarsnStripes:
Ummm...

Watch the movies "A Bridge Too Far" and "Band of Brothers", then get back to us.

Oke, i will watch it after Pearl habour.

[melon]

Originally posted by Rono:
Oke, i will watch it after Pearl habour.

LOL...good one there. You've got me laughing now.

Melon



------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[Rono]

Originally posted by ouizy:
America: The Good Neighbor

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional
Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these
countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it
was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward
was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of
Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United
States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
American communities were flattened by Tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, war- mongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is
gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar
build its own airplane. Does any other country in the
world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet,
the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why
don't they fly them? Why do all the International
lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about
American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -
not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
They are here on our streets, and most of them,
unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting
American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were
breaking down through age, it was the Americans who
rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the
New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old
caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to
the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me
even one time when someone else raced to the Americans
in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
to thumb their nose at The lands that are gloating
over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one
of those."

Stand proud, America!"

Did America ever asked for help ?


( serious question, i realy don`t know )

[Marko]

I'm not going to talk about my point of view here b/c everyone who read previous threads on this subject are familiar with it.
I'll just say that I agree with Melon. I don't agree with Holy Joe, but just b/c he is so aggresive, nothing else. BLOCK you have samo good points, you said it a little bit rough so people can have fun with taking evry word of yours and criticise it, I generaly feel the same way as you.
Let me just say this: I know a lot of american people and I like them all, but for all the things that happened in the past i'm not short of hating the US government.
so US government - almost HATE
US people - generaly LOVE, same as any other people from any other state, besides Serbia - they are my natural nemesis!

Now for some qoute:

[quote]Originally posted by StarsnStripes:
[b]

Originally posted by BLOCK:


5. GUESS WHAT! life goes on, I know people dying is a bad thing. But let it go. Thousands of people die around the world each day, but that wouldn't be any of AMERICAS concern now would it?


Let's see, which country gives more in aid than all others combined? Which country also sends more volunteers to grief stricken countries? You guessed it.

I quoted something like this in another thread and this is just wrong - maybe US is giving the most in absolute amount of help - BUT when you look at help in percentage of countries GDP than it's something totaly different. Of all the western states Danemark gives 1% of their GDP, than comes other nations as Norway, France, Sweden, Australia, Germany (not paricukary in that order), and US is on the bottom of that list with 0,1% of their GDP. Don't get me wrong, you give a lot, but by saying that you give the most, especialy by the heas of the citisen, is an insult to all those nations, and all those people that give more thatn you.

Another thing: why couldn't a country be neutral? My country is not neutral, we are against terorism. But what about switzerland? will you stop all your connections with them for being neutral? And what does neutral means? Is being neutral not acting and helping, or is it saying that you are neutral?

Rono: ask australians did they ever help you in your troubles and wars?
Quizi: The article that you posted by that tv comentator is a little bit ridiculous, and totaly ignorant. By reading it i almost saw you all as angels but, luckily, I snaped out of it. Get a grip on why was america doing that, and why all the poor nations have to pay their debt+interest...

[BLOCK]

Just to clarify for those of you who STILL think I'm an American hating terrorist. I'M NOT!

I think America is great! I don't 'LOVE' America but I don't 'HATE' America either. I guess that would make me neutral..quite a concept eh?

PEACE

again sorry to anyone who i offended with my rant

[babble]

Originally posted by BLOCK:
O YA..

I think i can be on NO SIDE for WAR..i never am on the side of killing

Hello BLOCK,
could you please answer this one question I have?
http://forum.u2wdd.org/u2feedback/Fo...ML/000729.html

[BLOCK]

Babble;

My answer to your question is simple. I think that the US should stop what they are doing right now! Then take the leaders of Afgan on to live Televison and SHOW THEM THE PROOF that they CLAIM to be unaware of. Now I myself haven't seen this "proof" either. But I have enough 'faith' in the World that there acually is some. Now in that way the Afgan government could not possibly deny the fact that they would be wrong. And would be forced to hand over Bin Laden.
Now once the American government has a hold of him. I say we shouldn't kill him, that would only be giving him what he wants. Put him in a room that has the pictures of everyone that he killed in that airstrike plastered onto the walls, and keep him alive in that room for the rest of his life.

Seems like that would be the thing to do. No WAR!

Now I'm sure some of you will ask me ' Well BLOCK, you know, what if they Afgan government doesn't hand him over even if they get the evidence. ' Well then I would have to say, STOP BOMBING! And if getting a hold of one man is really that important to you, send in ground troops to forcefully take him so that you can be sure, with the appropriate amount of 'error' ( I guess we can call cold blooded murdering an 'error' since I'm sure that's what the report will say ) that no civilian will be harmed unnessisarily(if thats how you spell it).

PEACE

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by BLOCK:
Babble;
Put him (Bin Laden) in a room that has the pictures of everyone that he killed in that airstrike plastered onto the walls, and keep him alive in that room for the rest of his life.
PEACE

Really, Block, if you put a man in prison, would you put all his trophies in there with him? For that's what those 6000 people are to him...trophies of the horrendous crime he pulled off. Do you really think it would make him feel bad? Sorry. Wouldn't work. He would be glad that if he had to be in prison, he could at least be comforted by looking upon the pictures of the many "infidels" he killed in the name of what he thinks is Allah. He would think we were honoring him.
Also, you put the man in prison, and his cronies would break him out, or at least kill a lot of people trying. And what happens when he's in jail? How does that stop all the other terrorists from committing their crimes? It doesn't. theer is only one solution. Destroy the terrorist groups before they destroy America. And then the rest of the world. Block, if those guys win this war, you'll be living in a world controlled by pure unadulterated evil and hate. You could then kiss all your freedoms goodnight, especially the freedom to criticize your government.

[babble]

Ah darn, ye beat me 80's ...but just want I wanted to say. Block, we are dealing with individuals that are willing to do anything to kill Americans, in fact as 80's said, they feel it is honorable to do so. It is not just Bin Laden we are dealing with....this is a whole terrorist group.

Just one more thing....You say: "And if getting a hold of one man is really that important to you"
I surely hope you feel that it is worth "getting hold" of this man that is responsible for the murder of thousands of innnocent lives (and not just Americans). Surely you agree that justice must be served.

[This message has been edited by babble (edited 10-18-2001).]

[babble]

Ah yes, and thank you BLOCK, for answering my question.

[BLOCK]

True he does live to kill people who do not beleive in what he beleives but I seriously think that if he was in solitary for the rest of his life, waisting away in that cell. And having the only thing to look at be the people that he killed. I think that that would surly send him mad.

Worst than to kill a man, is to kill his mind.
-BLOCK


PEACE

[StarsnStripes]

Originally posted by BLOCK:
Just to clarify for those of you who STILL think I'm an American hating terrorist. I'M NOT!

I think America is great! I don't 'LOVE' America but I don't 'HATE' America either. I guess that would make me neutral..quite a concept eh?

The issue is NOT whether you are pro or anti America. The issue is which side you take on terrorism. There is no room for neutrality here as I see it. Regardless of what you think of our gov't, let them take care of this world-wide threat, go back to being critical of US foreign policy later.



------------------
Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen.

[StarsnStripes]

Originally posted by Marko:

Now for some qoute:

I quoted something like this in another thread and this is just wrong - maybe US is giving the most in absolute amount of help - BUT when you look at help in percentage of countries GDP than it's something totaly different. Of all the western states Danemark gives 1% of their GDP, than comes other nations as Norway, France, Sweden, Australia, Germany (not paricukary in that order), and US is on the bottom of that list with 0,1% of their GDP. Don't get me wrong, you give a lot, but by saying that you give the most, especialy by the heas of the citisen, is an insult to all those nations, and all those people that give more thatn you.

Point taken, Marko, but really, what do % of GNP statistics mean to starving people??


Another thing: why couldn't a country be neutral? ......... And what does neutral means? Is being neutral not acting and helping, or is it saying that you are neutral?

Not helping or acting doesn't show neutrality, the US knows many of its allies are not able to offer anything.

Oh, and the Swiss thing- they claim neutrality all the time when a fight breaks out so as to avoid being attacked. The fact is that during WWII they were a silent partner of the Axis, and probably are assisting one side or the other now. Didn't they help freeze terrorist assets last month or was that another country?

------------------
Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do for someone is to just tell them to fuck off. I am told to fuck off rather a lot by these three gentlemen.

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by BLOCK:
Then take the leaders of Afgan on to live Televison and SHOW THEM THE PROOF that they CLAIM to be unaware of. Now I myself haven't seen this "proof" either. But I have enough 'faith' in the World that there acually is some. Now in that way the Afgan government could not possibly deny the fact that they would be wrong. And would be forced to hand over Bin Laden.

Okay. Would we have Geraldo Rivera moderate this little television spectacle?

[melon]

We know there's more to it than just the apprehension of bin Laden. Trust me. The U.S. has toppled governments for more frivolous reasons (Guatemala's last democracy was toppled by the U.S. at the request of a U.S. pineapple company), and knowing that a nation harbors terrorists, or, more specifically, enemies of the U.S., makes it a prime target for destruction.

What one must hope here, though, is that the U.S. will see this through and not install another tyrannical government like it has been fond of in the past. The Northern Alliance isn't as clean as the media paints them to be, you know. The Afghanistan civil war is mostly a case of various evils entrenched in rivalry. The people? Expendable. Once the Taliban falls, it is likely that the Northern Alliance will start fighting amongst itself, as it did before the Taliban.

Melon

------------------
"He had lived through an age when men and women with energy and ruthlessness but without much ability or persistence excelled. And even though most of them had gone under, their ignorance had confused Roy, making him wonder whether the things he had striven to learn, and thought of as 'culture,' were irrelevant. Everything was supposed to be the same: commercials, Beethoven's late quartets, pop records, shopfronts, Freud, multi-coloured hair. Greatness, comparison, value, depth: gone, gone, gone. Anything could give some pleasure; he saw that. But not everything provided the sustenance of a deeper understanding." - Hanif Kureishi, Love in a Blue Time

[Matthew_Page2000]

Block,

Your idea is dependent entirely upon the Taliban being the sort of people and government who respond to reason. Do you honestly think that they will capitulate and surrender Bin Laden when faced with evidence of his complicity in the 9/11 terror attacks? No government on earth behaves in such a reasonable way and yes I'm including the United States. Besides, they already know that he was involved. Everyone knows that he was involved except for Interferencer Patti Jones who is strangely convinced of his innocence.

Melon makes the sound point that the Northern Alliance might not be the most benevolent of rulers either. Perhaps not but I'm left with the same question I keep harping on in these matters: What is the alternative? Apparently Secretary of State Colin Powell has assured Pakistan that the Northen Alliance will only be one part of a coalition government in Afghanistan but what does that mean really? Who will make up the other "parts?"

MAP