Silly Christofacsists on CNN burning Harry Potter books

[80sU2isBest]

Why should we tolerate those who cannot respect a piece of fiction?

Why? because it is simply a matter of opinion. You don't want to tolerate somone because they "don't respect a piece of fiction"? Come on now.

I don't think we REALLY need to remind ourselves who else was burning books in the 20th century, now do we??

Yes, please remind me. I think I have an idea what you are going to say, and if it is indeed what I think, the comparison is ludicrous, and I'll be able to back up my assertion.

Are these Harry Potter book-burners mentally deranged? Are they comparable to The Taliban?

 

[AvsGirl41]

Re: Re: Silly Christofacsists on CNN burning Harry Potter books

Tolkein was a Christian, and his books were largely allegorically Christian in nature.

Tolkein also declared his books were not to be read as allegory. It's why he wasn't a fan of the Narnia books.

There are religious elements--there almost always is in a story about good versus evil--but to read LOTR as a straight-up Christian allegory is doing a huge disservice to the beauty and imagination of Tolkein's world.

But hey, to each their own. If it stops people from burning Middle Earth, let them read into it what they will. I just wish they'd crack open Harry Potter too, I think they'd be surprised.

 

[anitram]

Maybe they should take the money they spent on the books they were about to burn and donate it to charity, to "these least brothers of mine" instead of this absolute nonsense.

What a joke.

 

[starsgoblue]

Thank you anitram

 

[80sU2isBest]

Well, I guess that begs the question: Why are they so scared as to be burning these books?

Who said they were scared? Could they be doing it simply to stand up for their beliefs and try to make a point?

I am sure there are alot of things that you don't agree with...are you going to stand in the street and cause a commotion as you publicly burn them? I am sure that you are comfortable enough in your own faith to not act out as that way.

I'm not sure I would burn the books, but I respect their right to do so, as long they are books they paid for themselves. It's a form of protest.

Would you like to try answering my question now? Are these people mentally deranged? Are they comparable to the Taliban?

 

[starsgoblue]

These people are derange to think that this makes a flying fuck of difference, yes. The book sales are going to be that much better becaue they spent thier hard earned dollar to buy a book that they set to flame. That accomplishes nothing.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Re: Re: Re: Silly Christofacsists on CNN burning Harry Potter books

There are religious elements--there almost always is in a story about good versus evil--but to read LOTR as a straight-up Christian allegory is doing a huge disservice to the beauty and imagination of Tolkein's world.

Why would that be a "huge disservice to the beauty and imagination of Tolkein's world"? Are you saying that books that are Christian allegories are by nature any less beautiful and imaginative than those that aren't? Is "The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe" any less beautiful and imaginative than what you say is not Christian allegory, The Lord Of The Rings?

 

[80sU2isBest]

These people are derange to think that this makes a flying fuck of difference, yes. The book sales are going to be that much better becaue they spent thier hard earned dollar to buy a book that they set to flame. That accomplishes nothing.

I'm glad you finally answered my question.

Now I suggest you go read about mental derangement and discover what it really is.

 

[starsgoblue]

Oh, and about the Taliban. They seem to think they can force their beliefs on others by force. Christ doesn't come to anyone unless He calls them...He doesn't need to force Himself on anyone.

Don't tell me what I need to do.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Oh, and about the Taliban. They seem to think they can force their beliefs on others by force. Christ doesn't come to anyone unless He calls them...He doesn't need to force Himself on anyone.

So, by burning books, these people are trying to force Christ on people?

 

[starsgoblue]

You're ridicuous...it really doesn't matter what I say to you because your heart is set....that is that...so why bother debating.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Why? because it is simply a matter of opinion. You don't want to tolerate somone because they "don't respect a piece of fiction"? Come on now.

Yes, please remind me. I think I have an idea what you are going to say, and if it is indeed what I think, the comparison is ludicrous, and I'll be able to back up my assertion.

Are these Harry Potter book-burners mentally deranged? Are they comparable to The Taliban?

Good, back it up. Please do, I'd love to see how justified it is.

I do think they are mentally ill, yes. They have not read the books, that much is clear. They are basing an opinion on what they THINK is in them. That's not rational. Nor is it an opinion. I think the book burners hold their view as an opinion, I believe they are taking this step because they think it's fact. And it's not fact.


An opinion is what you find in a book review. "No, I don't like this book and here is why." It isn't "This book is evil, leads children to embrace witchcraft and sorcery, and therefore must be destroyed in a fire." That's a declaration. Big difference.

The fact (which seems to be ignored more and more in this really silly debate) remains that what these people *think* is witchcraft (and I emphasize the think, because they're dead wrong there too)--sacrifices, pentagrams, black candles, who knows--isn't even in Harry Potter. Harry Potter waves a wand and chants phony spells to make things light up or float. He eats magic candy. He uses magic to fight an evil character named Lord Voldemort. There is nothing about "Hey kids, let's all worship Satan now because that's cool." It's pretty clear that evil exists in Harry Potter's world, and that the good characters like Harry must try to destroy it. I don't know how much moral a story *can* be. No, there's no God in it--but does there have to be? Can't kids go to the source for God instead?

And don't you think fiction should be respected? Literature is art. I can't believe you would dismiss my remark in such an offhand way. It may be Harry Potter and easy to dismiss, but frankly, put your favorite piece of art in its place and see how you feel then.

 

[80sU2isBest]

You're ridicuous...it really doesn't matter what I say to you because your heart is set....that is that...so why bother debating.

I'm ridiculous? You call these people mentally deranged for burning some books and then accuse them of trying to force Christ on people with no evidence whatsoever to support it, and you call ME ridiculous?

 

[starsgoblue]

I NEVER said they were trying to force Christ on anyone....don't abuse what I said. And if they are, shame one them.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Silly Christofacsists on CNN burning Harry Potter books

Why would that be a "huge disservice to the beauty and imagination of Tolkein's world"? Are you saying that books that are Christian allegories are by nature any less beautiful and imaginative than those that aren't? Is "The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe" any less beautiful and imaginative than what you say is not Christian allegory, The Lord Of The Rings?

No. In fact, I'm quite fond of Christian allegory from the medieval era.

But it would be a disservice to read it so simplistically--and sorry, allegory is simplistic by its very nature, it's a limited literary form.

Tolkein's work is massive. Middle Earth came with languages, mythologies and history. The Lord of the Rings is only a slim chapter of it. Pick up The Simarillon sometime, if you haven't already. That can't be read as allegory, nor can his short stories. His Catholicism was always an element, but the stories stand alone from his religion and are, literary speaking, stronger for it.

I love C.S. Lewis too, but because he relied so much on allegory, the stories are more heavy-handed. I should find what Tolkein said about them, because it's better put than I could say it.

But that's my opinion, and isn't what this is all about?

 

[80sU2isBest]

Good, back it up. Please do, I'd love to see how justified it is.

You implied a comparison betwene these people and some other people in the 20th century who were burning books, but you didn'y say who. I have an idea who you are going to say, but you haven't told me yet. So how can I deal with the comparison?

I do think they are mentally ill, yes. They have not read the books, that much is clear. They are basing an opinion on what they THINK is in them. That's not rational. Nor is it an opinion. I think the book burners hold their view as an opinion, I believe they are taking this step because they think it's fact. And it's not fact..

How do you know they haven't read the books? And even if they haven't, yet they know it gives a positive outlook toward sorcery and wtchcraft, which are forbidden in the Bible, isn't that enough knowledge for them to know how they feel about it?

And even if they are forming an opinion without being completely familiar on the subject, does that mean they're deranged? It happens all the time in these forums - people make statemnets about things they really know nothing about. We've all done it at some point in our life. Are we all mentally deranged?

And don't you think fiction should be respected? Literature is art. I can't believe you would dismiss my remark in such an offhand way. It may be Harry Potter and easy to dismiss, but frankly, put your favorite piece of art in its place and see how you feel then.

Should all works of fiction be "respected" simply because they're "works of fiction"? My favorite work of fiction is "The Little Princess". If you don't like that, what do I care? If you burned it, what do I care? I may say "hoo hoo, what in the world is she doing that for?", but I wouldn't think you were mentally deranged or a member of The Taliban.

 

[starsgoblue]

The thing is...it really isn't a book about sorcery at all..even though it may be in the background it isn't about it at all...

It's like not reading the newspaper because their is horoscopes in it....

 

[80sU2isBest]

I NEVER said they were trying to force Christ on anyone....don't abuse what I said. And if they are, shame one them.

You said

"Oh, and about the Taliban. They seem to think they can force their beliefs on others by force. Christ doesn't come to anyone unless He calls them...He doesn't need to force Himself on anyone"

If you weren't implying that these people were trying to force Christ on anyone, why bring it up? It has absolutely nothing to do with anything if you weren't making that implication.

 

[starsgoblue]

Does it really matter what I say at this point? You're so primed to shoot everyone down.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Does it really matter what I say at this point? You're so primed to shoot everyone down.

Nice diversion tactic, starsgoblue. All I want are some answers to my questions. Why did you bring up Christ not forcing himself on anyone, if you were not implying that these people were doing that?

As for being primed to shoot everyone down", I'm not the one who started the "shooting people down" by making outrageous accusations of mental derangement and "talibanism".

Or do you consider my question-asking to be as inflammatory as those kinds of accustaions?

 

[starsgoblue]

What I want to know is this: I'm sitting here, drinking a beer, smoking a Djarum, listening to music where the artist says 'fuck', with the new Harry Potter on my bedstand. Do you think I'm less of a Christian because of that?

 

[AvsGirl41]

You implied a comparison betwene these people and some other people in the 20th century who were burning books, but you didn'y say who. I have an idea who you are going to say, but you haven't told me yet. So how can I deal with the comparison?

How do you know they haven't read the books? And even if they haven't, yet they know it gives a positive outlook toward sorcery and wtchcraft, which are forbidden in the Bible, isn't that enough knowledge for them to know how they feel about it?

And even if they are forming an opinion without being completely familiar on the subject, does that mean they're deranged? It happens all the time in these forums - people make statemnets about things they really know nothing about. We've all done it at some point in our life. Are we all mentally deranged?

Should all works of fiction be "respected" simply because they're "works of fiction"? My favorite work of fiction is "The Little Princess". If you don't like that, what do I care? If you burned it, what do I care? I may say "hoo hoo, what in the world is she doing that for?", but I wouldn't think you were mentally deranged or a member of The Taliban.

You just want me to say it so you can clutch your chest, shout outrage and start throwing it around in your replies. Guess I'll make your day and say The Nazis Burned Books. There, proceed--you can replace The Taliban with it. Capitalize all the words too, like I did.

I know they haven't read the books, because if they had, they wouldn't say it contains sorcery or witchcraft. They'd know it wasn't encouraging kids to practice Satanic worship. Believe me, I've seen firsthand what I'm talking about. My cousin and her family believed the same exact thing. Their church had told them the books were evil. They wouldn't even go see the films. Then they actually read the books, watched the movies and admitted they had been wrong. If they'd read the books, they'd know that the magic in the stories is no different than what's in Tolkein and Lewis--and they'd know J.K. Rowling is Christian, which they seem to be entirely ignorant of, among other things.

So no, I guess I don't find them mentally deranged. I just find them pathetically ignorant. People who are mentally ill can't help themselves.

And yes, all works of fiction should be respected. Even if it's a cheesy Harlequin novel--hey, I don't think it's *good* fiction, but it took someone time and effort to write it and someone out there enjoys it. Somehow I think if I gathered up all the copies of "A Little Princess" and held a public burning because I thought it was evil--the little girl should just be happy she has a roof over her head and look to God, not her imagination, to make her feel better--you'd probably care alot more.

 

[80sU2isBest]

You just want me to say it so you can clutch your chest, shout outrage and start throwing it around in your replies. Guess I'll make your day and say The Nazis Burned Books. There, proceed--you can replace The Taliban with it. Capitalize all the words too, like I did.

Nope, the reason I wanted you to say who you were talking about is because I want you to back up your claims. You threw that out there and then wouldn't tell me who you were talking about.

But here's my rebuttal. The Nazis herded people up by the millions and shoved them into cattle cars, then sent them off to concentration camps where they proceeded to starve them, torture them, dehumanize them and execute them. And you're going to imply a comparison between those monsters and these peopel burning books?

So no, I guess I don't find them mentally deranged.

Thank you.

 

[80sU2isBest]

What I want to know is this: I'm sitting here, drinking a beer, smoking a Djarum, listening to music where the artist says 'fuck', with the new Harry Potter on my bedstand. Do you think I'm less of a Christian because of that?

What I think is that you are doing your best to divert the subject.

I don't even know what a djarum is. But I'm not going to ask; you don't seem to be in much a mood to answer questions tonight.

Therefore, I will not answer you when you ask me what kind of a Christian I think you are.

All I will say is good night.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Somehow I think if I gathered up all the copies of "A Little Princess" and held a public burning because I thought it was evil--the little girl should just be happy she has a roof over her head and look to God, not her imagination, to make her feel better--you'd probably care alot more.

At least this shows me you read the book. Did you like it, by the way?

But no, I really wouldn't care what you did to the book, as long as it's not my copy. I certainly wouldn't call you The Taliban like someone here did, or mentally deranged, like someone else did.

 

[deep]

at least they are going the right direction

they went from witches

to crosses

to books


eventually,
we will get them to flags
and all will be well

 

[starsgoblue]

What I think is that you are doing your best to divert the subject.

I don't even know what a djarum is. But I'm not going to ask; you don't seem to be in much a mood to answer questions tonight.

Therefore, I will not answer you when you ask me what kind of a Christian I think you are.

All I will say is good night.

It's a freakin' cigarette. A clove cigarette.

 

[AvsGirl41]

Nope, the reason I wanted you to say who you were talking about is because I want you to back up your claims. You threw that out there and then wouldn't tell me who you were talking about.

But here's my rebuttal. The Nazis herded people up by the millions and shoved them into cattle cars, then sent them off to concentration camps where they proceeded to starve them, torture them, dehumanize them and execute them. And you're going to imply a comparison between those monsters and these peopel burning books?

Well hey, I could have said the Nazis and then wrote this exact paragraph, I expected more.

I don't need to repeat what I said. But yes, the comparison is there. Am I saying they are just as evil? Of course not. Nor are these people in possession of enough power to do anything on the scale of the Nazi Party.

But the Nazis burned the books written by Jews, communists and other "degenerate" authors. They did it in 1933, long before exterminations began. To those of us who study history and politics, you can't help but raise an eyebrow--its our job--and wonder what would happen if they had the support of the majority. I am NOT saying they would start killing people, I'm only wondering what else in literature, music, whatever, they would find evil. It wasn't that long ago some other yahoo wanted to ban works with homoerotic themes or imagery. Of course the comparison must be made, because when does "opinion" stop?

 

[Rono]

at least they are going the right direction

they went from witches

to crosses

to books


eventually,
we will get them to flags
and all will be well

 

[AvsGirl41]

At least this shows me you read the book. Did you like it, by the way?

But no, I really wouldn't care what you did to the book, as long as it's not my copy. I certainly wouldn't call you The Taliban like someone here did, or mentally deranged, like someone else did.

Actually, I'm not sure I have read it.

I know I read "The Secret Garden" which I liked alot. I probably read "A Little Princess" somewhere in there too. The problem is that I've seen every movie version several times over, so I honestly can't tell what might be the book in my brain and what is the movie, same with The Secret Garden. I have a vague memory of picking it up off our class library shelf, so I probably did. All I did as a kid was read. Someday, I'll have to pick it up again--or maybe the first time, who knows!

It was one of my sister's favorites. I always found it really traumatic. Stories with orphans used to *terrify* me. (Probably why they gave the latest version a happier ending.) Which is probably why I reread Paddington (my favorite kids book) over and over again...no trauma there!