Separation of Church and State in Alabama

[BVS]

(CNSNews.com) - The man at the center of the Ten Commandments dispute in Alabama remained defiant Thursday in the face of a federal court order to remove a sculpture of the commandments from the state judicial building in Montgomery.

"I have no intention of removing the monument of the Ten Commandments and the moral foundation of our law," said Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore at a press conference in the lobby of the judicial building. "To do so would in effect be a disestablishment of the justice system of this state. This I cannot and will not do."

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/1214884.html

As of today there will be fines up to $5,000 a day. So what do you guys think?

 

[verte76]

This is going on in my state. I don't like this guy. I think it's political grandstanding in the name of religion, something we've had way too much of. Good grief, we have a economic crisis going on in our state, and they are spending the taxpayers' money on this. I don't know why this guy *has* to have this monument. His freedom of religion is *not* being violated. He's making it out like this is what's happening. No one is telling him what church to go to or not to go to. It's misleading, it's stupid, and he should stop acting like a spoiled child. I'm sorry, I'm fed up with Alabama politics these days, what with right-wingers lying about a courageous Republican governor's tax reform package and such.

 

[nbcrusader]

The rest of the Alabama Supreme Court has overruled the Chief Justice to have the monument removed. There will be no daily fine.

What do I think? I wonder about the people who search the country for displays of the Ten Commandments to seek their removal. Guardians of the First Amendment (which does not call for a "separation of church and State") or an acceptable form of hatred?

 

[BVS]

I wonder about the people who search the country for displays of the Ten Commandments to seek their removal.

I think it's not a matter of displaying the 10 commandments, it's a matter of a US court displaying the 10 Commandments. I think you can be a believer in every sence, but still be a supporter of separation of Church and State without it being hatred.

 

[nbcrusader]

And that may be true in many cases, but those who file these cases tend to target specific things, such as displays of the Ten Commandments or Crosses.

These cases go beyond US court houses to any public property. I don't see the Establishment of religion by such passive displays.

 

[BVS]

I guess it depends on which public properties you speak of.

 

[melon]

I'm reminded of Luke 18 with the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. The faithfulness of the tax collector is eventually judged by Jesus to be greater than the Pharisee, due to his humility. It is these values that I do not see in Moore and the division that he is purposely inciting to prove that he is "morally correct" are actions that I would expect from a Pharisee, not Jesus.

I almost think that this statue has become more of a "Golden Calf," rather than a monument; the difference between the two being the level of fanaticism accompanying it.

As for nbcrusader's argument, why aren't there monuments to non-Judeo-Christian religions then on public property? Arguments that try and say that our Constitution was based on the Ten Commandments, which Moore has made several times, are purely 19th century romanticism. Our Founding Fathers were generally agnostics and Unitarians. The "Bible Belt" brand of Protestantism in America did not resurge until the 1830s.

Melon

 

[verte76]

This argument has been going on for years. I guess it's just my experience with Alabama politics that has me so fed up with this. There are so many problems in this state. It's not a matter of people going around seeing what they can screw up or who they can stomp on next. He had his say in what he could do and the courts have given their ruling. Now this is just grandstanding. He's telling us what a great Christian he is. In this state we've had so many politicians dictating morality and religion it makes me feel like a character in a James Joyce book putting up with the state dictates in the name of the Almighty Church. Joyce was Catholic, we are historically Protestant (I'm a convert to Catholicism as you probably know) and I'm sick of hearing the same old stuff from my state officials. It's almost like they want to get themselves elected some sort of Protestant Pope. I don't mean to show any disrespect to religion (my priest won't like that). I'm fed up with this guy and my state officials in general. They tend to be manipulative idiots.

 

[nbcrusader]

I almost think that this statue has become more of a "Golden Calf," rather than a monument; the difference between the two being the level of fanaticism accompanying it.

I agree with you hee. No point in elevating the monument over the words on the monument.

As for nbcrusader's argument, why aren't there monuments to non-Judeo-Christian religions then on public property? Arguments that try and say that our Constitution was based on the Ten Commandments, which Moore has made several times, are purely 19th century romanticism. Our Founding Fathers were generally agnostics and Unitarians. The "Bible Belt" brand of Protestantism in America did not resurge until the 1830s.

Actually, that was not my argument. I am not asking for the Ten Commandments to be placed public property. I am questioning the motives of those who search out these monuments and file their lawsuits.

As for the Founding Fathers/19th century romanticism point, while I would not argue that the Founding Fathers werer trying to create a Christian society. However, if you read through the Old Testament, many of the basic legal principles of our society are spelled out quite clearly.

 

[melon]

As for the Founding Fathers/19th century romanticism point, while I would not argue that the Founding Fathers werer trying to create a Christian society. However, if you read through the Old Testament, many of the basic legal principles of our society are spelled out quite clearly.

These morals are not mutually exclusive to Christianity, nor did they all originate from Christianity. "An eye for an eye," for instance, was less "God's law" in the Old Testament as the Levite authors of the "Mosaic Law" borrowing from the Babylonian "Code of Hammurabi" (c. 1780 B.C.), and using "God" to establish unquestioning authority. Shall we now build a monument to the "Code of Hammurabi"? It probably has far more to do with the creation of civil law than the Ten Commandments.

Secular humanists would certainly disagree that morality is exclusive to religion, and it is my opinion that secular humanism is where our nation's moral foundation was founded on. At the same time, though, I think it has thus been trampled over by religious arguments, some of which runs contrary to secular humanism and rational scientific argument. That, overall, is where I think our country's problems lie.

Melon

 

[verte76]

Whatever, this particular guy has no interest in helping our state or our country. If he did he would have used all of this time and energy with our financial crisis, which the Old Guard is actually claiming doesn't exist. It's a whole mind-set with these politicos. They just want to toot their own horns, to hell with the state. I wonder what they'll say when you really can't tell the difference between this state and a third-world country?? That's where we're headed.
Sorry, don't mean to highjack the thread. These idiots just really piss me off. I'm tired of putting up with their and there's no end in sight.

 

[deep]

Verte,

I am sure you know more about this situation than most of us posting in this thread.
I did take the time to read a few articles concerning this matter.
I don't disagree with your opinions.


This guy used the 10 Commandments in his campaign to get elected to his office.

The other eight Alabama Supreme Court judges all agree that the monument he had placed in the foyer, in the middle of the night, should be moved. I hardly believe the other 8 judges are a bunch of ACLU lefties.

The best I can say about this guy is that he is misguided.
Everything I read suggests he is simply using this to further his political career.
If that is true it is despicable.
Either way he is unfit to be a judge.




A question to the people who support this.

I have heard people say, "If everyone followed the Ten Commandments we would not need any other laws." Does anyone really believe this?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

IMO, it's a fight over nothing. It's like that situation a few months back where some group decided to sue because a city (Chicago?) had quotations from well-known people on the back of subway tickets and they included a quote from Mother Theresa. I can't imagine what kind of people have the time, the energy of the financial resources to sue about something as ridiculous as this. Exactly how does that have *anything* to do with separation of Church and State?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

A question to the people who support this.

I have heard people say, "If everyone followed the Ten Commandments we would not need any other laws." Does anyone really believe this?

No, but how is this relevant to the original subject? We're not discussing the validity of the Ten Commandments, but rather whether it's okay for them to be displayed in a public building.

 

[Popmartijn]

Hello,

No, but how is this relevant to the original subject? We're not discussing the validity of the Ten Commandments, but rather whether it's okay for them to be displayed in a public building.

On the other hand, Moore argues that the Ten Commandments are the moral foundation of the US law. Is that the case? Or is the US law based on more universal principles?

C ya!

Marty

 

[melon]

People like Moore are not interested in universality, but, rather, are interested in trying to show the "supremacy" of their religion. That makes all the difference.

Melon

 

[Leeloo]

I don't think it's that big of a deal. 99.9% of the population probably couldn't care less if it's there or not. It's just the extremists on both sides trying to make a show. I can't really believe anyone is so offended by the 10 Commandments they'd have such a fit. Maybe the guy is using it for politics. But I really don't think it's so terrible they'd have to take it down. Maybe some local church group can sponsor it so it won't be 'gov't' controlled anymore.

 

[BVS]

Maybe some local church group can sponsor it so it won't be 'gov't' controlled anymore.

It's in a Government building! The government can't choose a religion. It's that simple. If a church sponsored it, it would be on church grounds and this wouldn't be an issue, but he doesn't want it on church grounds.

 

[verte76]

You're right, Fizz, this is meaningless. It's a political game. This guy's religious rights are *not* being violated. It's got nothing to do with anyone's religious rights. No one is telling him he can't practice his religion. It's the kind of political charade that our political idiots play. They don't address the real problems addressing the state. If they do address them the way our Republican governor has, the Old Guard tries to shoot them down. It's exasperating. How are we supposed to accomplish anything?

 

[nbcrusader]

I have heard people say, "If everyone followed the Ten Commandments we would not need any other laws." Does anyone really believe this?

A great question for another thread, but I think with something more than a superficial approach to the commandments, the answer would be yes.

 

[womanfish]

People have to realize that this arguement isn't even really about the 10 commandments being placed there. The Supreme Court has the 10 Commandments on the wall behind them. The difference here is that the Supreme Court also has other things on that wall that pertain to other religions and other law making codes. In this court in Alabama it is ONLY the 10 Commandments and nothing else. This (at least in perception) elevates one group of people above others because of their religious beliefs. Are you willing to risk getting a fair trial because of your religious beliefs??? It shouldn't even be an issue right? Right.

That's why we seperate church and state. Everyone in this country has a right and a freedom to the faith of their choosing. People like Moore are seriously twisted and are ignorant about the foundation this country was built on.

 

[ABEL]

You're right, Fizz, this is meaningless. It's a political game. This guy's religious rights are *not* being violated.

I know I don't post in here very often any more...but I agree, this argument is meaningless....the statue is doing no one any harm...it's not like people are being forced to look at it.....what about "In God We Trust" being written on our money? Are they going to try to remove that next too? It's Government money

 

[BVS]

I know I don't post in here very often any more...but I agree, this argument is meaningless....the statue is doing no one any harm...it's not like people are being forced to look at it.....what about "In God We Trust" being written on our money? Are they going to try to remove that next too? It's Government money

If you were Muslim and on trial and you walked into a courthouse that had what is considered a Judeo Christian tablet of laws written upon them, but no other religions represented. How would you feel about get a fair trial? This isn't meaningless. The "In God we Trust" can be any god, it's not limited to Judeo-Christian beliefs. Although athiests have brought up this issue before...but this will be another thread for another day.

 

[nbcrusader]

The latest on everyone's favorite state Supreme Court Justice:

Alabama Panel Suspends Ten Commandments Judge

ATLANTA (Reuters) - An Alabama commission that monitors judicial conduct on Friday suspended the chief justice of the state's Supreme Court over his defiance of a U.S. order to remove a Ten Commandments monument from the state courthouse.

Roy Moore, who has vowed to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court to keep the monument in public view, was suspended pending the review of a complaint that accuses him of misconduct for not meeting a midnight Wednesday deadline to remove the display, a representative of the state Judicial Inquiry Commission said. Moore, who was elected chief justice in late 2000, has been fighting to keep the two-ton granite monument in the court building in Montgomery since he had it installed two years ago.

A federal judge ruled the display must be moved because it violated a clause in the U.S. Constitution which bars the government from promoting religion.

 

[sharky]

ack! we have two threads going on this now and go debate in both. I posted this in the other one but also wanted to post it here for thought. From CNN.com

Asked on CNN whether he would support an Islamic monument to the Koran in the rotunda of the federal building, Moore replied, "This nation was founded upon the laws of God, not upon the Koran. That's clear in the Declaration (of Independence), so it wouldn't fit history and it wouldn't fit law."

 

[verte76]

ack! we have two threads going on this now and go debate in both. I posted this in the other one but also wanted to post it here for thought. From CNN.com

Asked on CNN whether he would support an Islamic monument to the Koran in the rotunda of the federal building, Moore replied, "This nation was founded upon the laws of God, not upon the Koran. That's clear in the Declaration (of Independence), so it wouldn't fit history and it wouldn't fit law."

Idiot. That's how much he knows about Islam.

 

[sue4u2]

The framers of this country, specifically Jefferson and Madison held an expansive view of the First Amendment, arguing that church-state separation would protect both religion and government.
Madison specifically feared that a small group of powerful churches would join together and seek establishment or special favors from the government.
Jefferson and Madison did not see church- state separation as an either or" proposition or argue that one institution needed greater protection than the other. To prevent this from happening, Madison sooke of the desirability of a "multiplicity of sect" that would guard againt government favoritism.
Jefferson believed that no worthy religion would seek the power of the state to coerce belief.
Even though I'm not sure how much power of coercion Moore has, I'm greatly pleased that he has been suspended. He does not speak for me or any of the Alabamians I know, and is looked upon as yet another embarrasement for this state. He'd just another fanatic who want's to live by his law and want's everyone else to live by it too. He's deluded abd that makes him dangerous. Ok, I've had my say.

 

[verte76]

I agree with everything you said, sue4u2.

 

[melon]

Jefferson believed that no worthy religion would seek the power of the state to coerce belief.

As we can see then, we no longer have worthy religions.

Melon

 

[nbcrusader]

Idiot. That's how much he knows about Islam.

Not to agree with Moore, but why the strong response?