Searching for Perfection=more abortions

[Dreadsox]

What is next, a test to determine ADD, ADHD, or other "issues" that parents do not wish to deal with? This is insane.....if my baby is not perfect we will abort it. We are increasingly becoming a selfish society.

Cleft pallate?

[Q]The number of babies aborted because of deformities has increased by 8% in a year, figures have revealed.

A foetus aborted because of a cleft lip and palate in 2001 caused a storm of controversy after the Rev Joanna Jepson took the case to the High Court in a bid to get police to act against the doctors involved in the operation.

She argued that an abortion could never be justified under the 1967 Abortion Act saying that a cleft lip and palate were not a ?serious handicap?.

The latest data from the National Congenital Anomaly System (NCAS) reveal that another abortion was carried out due to the same deformity in 2002.[/Q]


Downs syndrome

[Q]The number of abortions carried out because of chromosomal abnormalities such as Downs syndrome increased by 17% ? from 591 in 2001 to 690 in 2002.

There were more foetuses with Downs syndrome aborted than babies born with the condition in 2002 ? 372 abortions compared with 329 births.[/Q]


http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2995905


I have seen many children with downs syndrome come through the doors of my school and lead happy lives. I have had children with cleft pallates come through my doors and lead happy lives.

This data is from England...I wonder what would happen if we looked into the USA figures.

 

[beli]

The article doesnt state which type of Downs Syndrome. There are 3 types. The reasonably healthy ones that you would see at your school and other not so healthy ones. Ones that have only a 5% chance of living and also have the prospect of the mother dieing as well.

I am with you on the cleft palate issue. Thats not a life threatening 'illness' for either child nor mother.

PS Im presuming you disagree with the article Dread. If not my apologies. I find you one difficult nut to crack.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Walk a mile in the shoes of a parent with a Downs child.
We are all free to criticise and hypothesise, but we will never understand.

 

[beli]

Walk a mile in the shoes of a parent with a Downs child.
We are all free to criticise and hypothesise, but we will never understand.

 

[Dreadsox]

Cleft pallate too?

You miss my point. Where do we draw the line? I have autistic children in my school too as well as life skill students.

Many parents do walk in those shoes......Successfully. It troubles me that the medical community my develop a test that can check for more "defects" that will cause a rise in abortions. What if a test is creatted to determine "homosexuality". Think I am crazy on this?

Cleft Pallate was crazy until I read it a few minutes ago.

 

[beli]

Cleft palate = no
Homosexuality = no
Red hair = no

Downs is treading in murky water, though.

 

[Dreadsox]

Also one other point....Parent's are currently filing for Social Security benefits here in the US for ADD and ADHD under the American's with Disabilities Act. If I read the article correctly the abortions are allowed under British Law if the "disablity" has a serious impact on quality of life. My point....if the US is giving Social Security Benefits because of the Disability to children it must be a life altering disbilty.

Where do we draw the line? I suppose in fifty years or so we will find out.

 

[beli]

Hey Dread, you do know Downs is a medical condition as well as an intellectual disability?

My understanding of autism, and correct me if Im wrong, is that its purely an intellectual/emotional disability.

 

[beli]

If I read the article correctly the abortions are allowed under British Law if the "disablity" has a serious impact on quality of life.

Downs could well do. But cleft palate? Seems really odd to me.

 

[Dreadsox]

Hey Dread, you do know Downs is a medical condition as well as an intellectual disability?

My understanding of autism, and correct me if Im wrong, is that its purely an intellectual/emotional disability.

Autism is a wide spectrum of disorders lumped together. Again, I am not here to debate disorders or what is what. Not my point.

My point is as medical technology increases, and we potentially can identify these children in the fetus, what is going to happen?

 

[Angela Harlem]

Cleft pallate too?

You miss my point. Where do we draw the line? I have autistic children in my school too as well as life skill students.

Many parents do walk in those shoes......Successfully. It troubles me that the medical community my develop a test that can check for more "defects" that will cause a rise in abortions. What if a test is creatted to determine "homosexuality". Think I am crazy on this?

Cleft Pallate was crazy until I read it a few minutes ago.

Dreadsox with all due respect, you completely missed my point which is this is not entirely an abortion debate. The choice some parents make to abort their unborn child is born (pardon the pun) from fear and self doubt that the the child they have been given the gift of bringing into this world will face hardships they and the child will not always be ready for or even be able to cope with. We then turn the much shunned welfare state when it is convenient and declare that there is always help, these people have the choice of adoption, religion comes into it and so on. We can stretch this to encompass as many issues as we have the time to discuss. But it still remains that this is not convenience abortion for all these parents, not matter how keen you may or may not be to paint it as such.

 

[Angela Harlem]

And no, cleft palates are a ludicrous reason for aborting an unborn child.

 

[beli]

Bingo. I see where you are coming from now.

The ins and outs of medical disorders is an issue for me. Im not pro or anti abortion per se - depends on the case.

If Im reading you correctly, and I frequently dont, then Im guessing you are anti abortion in all cases?

 

[Dreadsox]

No you miss the point....I did not start the thread to debate the impact on parents. But thank you for portraying me as "keen to paint things in a certain light."

If people are going to abort for one defect, with the development of future technology, they may decide that there are other "defects" that are potential "hardships" on the family.

WE have children that were deceloping totally normally in my building that between the ages of three and five developed autism spectrum disorder. They at this point stopped developing and develope what we broadly call autism. If there were a test to determine this, who is to say the parents would not have aborted.

Take it a step further....What "defect" is next....

 

[Dreadsox]

If Im reading you correctly, and I frequently dont, then Im guessing you are anti abortion in all cases?

I will PM you on this for fear it would derail the thread.

 

[Dreadsox]

Who defines the "DEFECTS"?????

Is Bipolarism a "DEFECT"? IS ADD and DEFECT? IS ADHD a DEFECT?



All of these affect the "Lifestyle" of people.....

 

[beli]

If people are going to abort for one defect, with the development of future technology, they may decide that there are other "defects" that are potential "hardships" on the family.

I disagree. Some defects are hardships on both the child and the family.

Cleft palate will always be a stupid reason for aborting a child. I can not imagine society going that far down the toilet that abortion of children with minor defects would be acceptable. I dont believe people are that fundamentally mean.

It would also be a heart wrenching decision for the parents, particularly the mother, to terminate any pregnancy. I dont honestly believe women make these decisions lightly.

 

[Angela Harlem]

... not matter how keen you may or may not be to paint it as such.

Also note it was not 'you' as in you specifically. Blame the inventor of the English language for not differentiating between a generic you and you.


I was not missing your point either Dread. I was responding to how it seemed that Downs is being described as something not worthy of the abortion option. Perhaps for you personally, and many, it isn't. Anyway. You want to know where we will draw the line? Do you think society will not be able to make rational decisions on the whole? We will not seperate medical risk from a world where we have made-to-order children?

When we become comfortable with cleft palates and other relatively superficial defects being the cause of abortion en mass, we will be in trouble.

 

[Dreadsox]

It would also be a heart wrenching decision for the parents, particularly the mother, to terminate any pregnancy. I dont honestly believe women make these decisions lightly.

I agree with you

But I think that if people are willing to claim ADHD as a severe disability and want social security benefits.....

and

if people are willing to abort for a cleft pallate I believe eventually anything is possible.

 

[beli]

if people are willing to abort for a cleft pallate I believe eventually anything is possible.

I have more faith in mankind than that. Reading that article I think there were only 2 people who aborted because of cleft palate. 2 people in how many? Truckloads. Most of the rest of England obviously didnt have an issue with it and gave birth to their cleft babes.

There will always be weirdos. I dont believe this will become an issue.

I think the bigger issue in the future is people not having any children at all.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

There was a lot of discussion about this in the media when it came up several months ago. The key issue is that this isn't actually a debate about whether it's ever acceptable for a woman to choose abortion because the child will have a cleft palate. It's a debate about whether cleft palate qualifies as a disability which means the woman can choose to have an abortion later in pregnancy.

The 1967 abortion act places certain restrictions on abortions performed up to 24 weeks, but these restrictions effectively mean that abortion is available on demand up until 24 weeks. (Of course that's ignoring the fact that many women find that their GP tries to stop them from having an abortion because they [the GP] object to it.) After 24 weeks the restrictions are more strict and one of the reasons a woman can have an abortion is that the baby would be born with a severe disability. So the actual question isn't whether it's okay for a woman to have an abortion if the child will have a cleft palate, but whether it's okay for her to have an abortion after 24 weeks for this reason.

Anyway. That was just one long ramble, lol.

I think the two issues raised in this thread are quite separate. If you consider the impact that being born with a cleft palate and being born with Down Syndrome will have on a person's life, it's clear that the two aren't comparable.

 

[melon]

You're legally able to abort perfectly healthy children with no abnormalities too. It probably happens more often than the children with genetic abnormalities.

The mothers will have to deal with their conscience someday.

Melon

 

[beli]

I dont believe a cleft palate is a severe disability. In Australia an unborn fetus that dies after 20 weeks is issued with a death certificate ie is considered a child. IMHO there would have to be a bloody good reason for aborting a child so late, and I dont believe cleft palate is that reason.

Nor is it a disability (according to me) that should warrant social security. In an ideal world the government should pay for the corrective surgery but thats it.

 

[Dreadsox]

Is anyone here worried about medical advances that would allow people to determine genetic traits well in advance?

 

[beli]

You're legally able to abort perfectly healthy children with no abnormalities too. It probably happens more often than the children with genetic abnormalities.

The mothers will have to deal with their conscience someday.

Melon

Without derailing Dreads thread. What about women who are raped and conceive perfectly healthy children but are emotionally incapable of caring that child to term?

 

[beli]

Is anyone here worried about medical advances that would allow people to determine genetic traits well in advance?

I think society would amend itself pretty quickly if that happens. It would only take one generation of all children being born doctors and scholars before all the toilets broke and we remembered the need for plumbers.

Have you ever read Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy?

 

[melon]

Without derailing Dreads thread. What about women who are raped and conceive perfectly healthy children but are emotionally incapable of caring that child to term?

Again, the mothers will have to deal with their conscience someday.

Melon

 

[beli]

Again, the mothers will have to deal with their conscience someday.

Melon

Okay, as long as you dont mean that in a mean way.

 

[melon]

Okay, as long as you dont mean that in a mean way.

It can mean whatever. That's the beauty of "choice." They may never look back, or they may be tortured by it until they die and beyond. But that is their choice, and it is not my place to judge.

Melon

 

[kobayashi]

Is anyone here worried about medical advances that would allow people to determine genetic traits well in advance?

better humans

jurgen habermas also made this issue the subject of his latest book.

there is definitely concern dread. it is a domain void of social norms-in time they will be fostered and challenged. there will likely be contraventions, but sense will prevail.