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Old 10-21-2009, 09:57 PM   #501
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Hypocrisy is one of the more venal sins.

You neatly sidestep the questions around Dave Letterman's arrant and obvious hypocrisy, whilst leaping on to a conservative political family's alleged hypocrisy.
Please explain, I would love to hear this...
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:58 PM   #502
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Did Laura Bush come off that uninformed? Did she preach abstinence and have a knocked up daughter?
What does Laura Bush have to do with any of this?

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Palin has come off as THE most uninformed politician I can remember, and that's saying a hell of a lot.
We're never going to agree here, so no point in trying to debate this.

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Palin put her family in the spotlight, fact of life. Letterman was out of line but only because he didn't do his research and find out which daughter it was... You're probably too young to remember how Republicans treated Chelsea(especially Rush), and she wasn't even a contradiction or getting falling down drunk at bars underage.
Can you give me examples of attacks on Chelsea? Besides the one Rush quote and the one McCain quote that I know of.

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Do not play victim, Palin did this to herself and family.
I'm not talking about what Sarah Palin did. Don't people like you have any sort of decency attacking a family? They lost. Congratulations. Is your life that boring and uninteresting that you have to endlessly go after a family that you'll probably never hear about again with the exception of an occasional book? How Irvine says he's "forced" to listen to her is still unbelievably baffling to me...

And I take it anytime you demonstrate hypocrisy, that's grounds for you be to ridiculed and maligned for the rest of your life? Got it.

I guess that's just the difference between you and I. If Hillary had "preached" abstinence, and then Chelsea got pregnant at 18, I would never think of using that for political points, or even for a cheap, immature laugh.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:07 PM   #503
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So I take it you're someone who thinks families are acceptable targets during political campaigns? I mean, if they are during the middle of an administration, certainly family is fair game during an election, right? And tell me, since the Palins could stop all the attacks at any time, what could be done to stop the attacks on Bristol? Or on the idea that Trig isn't actually Sarah's child? I'm curious what the Palins could do to get those ridiculous attacks to cease.
Oh please. You have to know they trotted their kids out any time they thought they could get any attention from it. Once Palin did that -- and kept doing it -- of course they were going to get mauled by the political/media machines.

Since financeguy's post was about the current chatter about them, my response was also about the current chatter about them. So, yes, there would have been interest and comments about the kids during the campaign no matter what the Palins did, but it would not have been nearly as brutal without her whoring her kids out at every opportunity. The way to stop it? Don't treat the kids like fucking commodities to be used to garner votes/sympathy/money, especially now. They can keep their underage kids out of the public eye, but have chosen to use them for publicity instead. I feel sorry for the kids, but the parents used them mercilessly and as such (the parents) get absolutely no sympathy from me. I find them particularly despicable.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:08 PM   #504
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What does Laura Bush have to do with any of this?
You mentioned the Bushes. Just insert any name in that question and the answer will be the same.


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We're never going to agree here, so no point in trying to debate this.
It's just a sad fact.


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Can you give me examples of attacks on Chelsea? Besides the one Rush quote and the one McCain quote that I know of.
She didn't do much so they just made fun of her awkward looks... But the two you listed should be enough, can you think of a direct quote from Obama about Palin's family?

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I'm not talking about what Sarah Palin did. Don't people like you have any sort of decency attacking a family? They lost. Congratulations. Is your life that boring and uninteresting that you have to endlessly go after a family that you'll probably never hear about again with the exception of an occasional book? How Irvine says he's "forced" to listen to her is still unbelievably baffling to me...
Don't ever fucking question my decency. I'm telling you how media works, nothing more, nothing less.

But I am glad you think we'll never hear from her again, it shows me some of you are growing up and moving on.

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And I take it anytime you demonstrate hypocrisy, that's grounds for you be to ridiculed and maligned for the rest of your life? Got it.
If it's in public, unfortunately yes, until I do something to make people forget about it. Once again, I'm just telling you how the public works, nothing more, nothing less.

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I guess that's just the difference between you and I. If Hillary had "preached" abstinence, and then Chelsea got pregnant at 18, I would never think of using that for political points, or even for a cheap, immature laugh.
It's not just about a laugh, this is the part you don't get, it's pretty strong "evidence" that it doesn't work and that it's a naive idea.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:17 PM   #505
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I'm telling you how media works, nothing more, nothing less.
And that isn't particularly relevant one way or the other, because we're pointing out hypocrisies and telling you about what we think is right - what should happen, not what actually does.

If you think it's ok for the media to bring politicians' kids into it once they are found 'guilty' in the so-called 'court of public opinion', then fine, but I disagree. I pretty much think politicians' kids should not be brought into it full stop. I disagreed with Bush on most things, but I never saw the relevance of his daughters' enjoying a few beers now and again being brought up for public consumption.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:27 PM   #506
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And that isn't particularly relevant one way or the other, because we're pointing out hypocrisies and telling you about what we think is right - what should happen, not what actually does.
No, you framed it as Letterman and the media only attacks conservative women's families. Go back and read your own posts. I just responded to how YOU framed the question.

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If you think it's ok for the media to bring politicians' kids into it once they are found 'guilty' in the so-called 'court of public opinion', then fine, but I disagree. I pretty much think politicians' kids should not be brought into it full stop. I disagreed with Bush on most things, but I never saw the relevance of his daughters' enjoying a few beers now and again being brought up for public consumption.
In an ideal world, I agree. I never stated that I'm fine with the treatment politician's families get, I just don't fall for the conspiracy theory that it's only one side, and I've shown that.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:30 PM   #507
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Oh please. You have to know they trotted their kids out any time they thought they could get any attention from it. Once Palin did that -- and kept doing it -- of course they were going to get mauled by the political/media machines.
I don't remember too many such instances of using her kids as political commodities. Refresh my memory.

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Don't ever fucking question my decency.
Then I would appreciate you never questioning mine. I expect no future implications that my opposition to Obama has anything to do with race, or that I somehow support racism and slavery because I listen to Rush.

Again, I say there must be something more than just going after her because she "preached" one thing and her child did another. If it was, there would also be a 33-page thread here about the daughter of the current Vice-President of the United States and her cocaine use. Where are all the jokes about that?
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:35 PM   #508
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Again, I say there must be something more than just going after her because she "preached" one thing and her child did another. If it was, there would also be a 33-page thread here about the daughter of the current Vice-President of the United States and her cocaine use. Where are all the jokes about that?
When has Biden used a "Just Say No" teaching as a staple part of his platform? I really don't think you are understanding this point.

If he had and the cocaine use was true, believe me your AM talk guys would have been all over that...
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:42 PM   #509
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When has Biden used a "Just Say No" teaching as a staple part of his platform? I really don't think you are understanding this point.
What am I missing, then? You don't think he's told his kids not to do drugs? But darn it, they went out and did drugs anyways. How is that different from the Palin scenario?

And for Biden's record on drug issues: Joe Biden on Drugs

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If he had and the cocaine use was true, believe me your AM talk guys would have been all over that...
Good Lord, I don't care about the "AM guys!" Were YOU all over it? Were YOU attacking her and her father in the wake of the story and for the following months? No. You weren't.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:53 PM   #510
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What am I missing, then? You don't think he's told his kids not to do drugs? But darn it, they went out and did drugs anyways. How is that different from the Palin scenario?

And for Biden's record on drug issues: Joe Biden on Drugs



Good Lord, I don't care about the "AM guys!" Were YOU all over it? Were YOU attacking her and her father in the wake of the story and for the following months? No. You weren't.
Has the evidence ever surfaced? Forgive me I lost touch after the guy claimed he had video but then never came forth...

That being asked I do see a big difference between preaching abstinence and telling children not to do drugs.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:57 PM   #511
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What am I missing, then? You don't think he's told his kids not to do drugs? But darn it, they went out and did drugs anyways. How is that different from the Palin scenario?

And for Biden's record on drug issues: Joe Biden on Drugs



Good Lord, I don't care about the "AM guys!" Were YOU all over it? Were YOU attacking her and her father in the wake of the story and for the following months? No. You weren't.
I have to jump in here. I don't care how the Palins choose to raise their kids and their values on sex, but I don't want her in any position to affect government policy on such things. I already live in a state (GA) that has "sex ed" in school that pushes the abstinence only agenda and won't allow for discussion of birth control in an honest way.

And she DID choose to put her children in the spotlight, seemingly without caring about the price her kids would pay for it. And for this people act like she's mother of the year or something? Not in my book.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:00 PM   #512
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Could it be because she loves the attention and she's the dimmest bulb politics has produced in decades?


Naw. It's because we libruls hate the gals.



Jesus.
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Old 10-22-2009, 01:14 AM   #513
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I do think you've got the wrong end of the stick on this one, financeguy. I mean, I won't say all the treatment meted out to Ms Palin is wonderful (unlikely it would be), but her politics are not far removed as far as I can tell from the departed Bush crowd (whom you loathe). If anything they are more extreme.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:57 AM   #514
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I love how this particular family touches so many raw nerves.

And for the record, teen parents who themselves exploit their status through ongoing publicity and profit (playgirl!) are now fair game.

Teaching abstinence as a (or perhaps the most) responsible choice is a good thing. In the absence of well-rounded fertility, contraception and STD education, it's incredibly irresponsible.

David Letterman has jumped the shark.
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:02 AM   #515
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I don't see what there is to complain about. Palin has willingly thrown herself out there in the entertainment circuit. Isn't she in the works to get her own television show? She wants to be an entertainer first and foremost. Why else quit governing Alaska without any sort of prior notice?

She is the political world's "Jon and Kate + 8"
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:38 AM   #516
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what everyone misses is that Palin's family and her gender were trotted out as her qualifications. the female factor was to try to lure the PUMA's, and her expansive family, her DS baby ... all this was supposed to make her the walking embodiment of the pro-life movement to increase McCain's credibility with a base that has long loathed him.

*that's* why Ms. Palin has been so mocked, because she trots out her (admittedly very good looking) family as proof of her qualifications. were she able to back it up with any sort of knowledge of politics, history, economics, etc., or if she had been able to at least fake it during her hyper-controlled "roll out," she might have more credibility.

but she wasn't able to do any of this. the base loves her because she drives people like me crazy. and the reason why she drives me crazy is because not only is she flat-out ignorant, but she thinks that ignorance is something to be celebrated, and she perpetuates the myth that Johnny-Can-Do may not have much book learnin', but gosh darn it, he's got common sense.

Obama was mocked for being a celebrity. but it's Palin who's the reality TV star.

and i'm totally watching the Oprah thing. to me, at this point, she's just high camp.
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:48 AM   #517
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^ Well said.
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:28 AM   #518
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what everyone misses is that Palin's family and her gender were trotted out as her qualifications.
Wrong. Not one instance can I recall of a conservative being asked about Palin's record or qualifications, and their response being "She's a woman! And a mother of five, to boot!" Refresh my memory.
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Old 10-22-2009, 12:34 PM   #519
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Wrong. Not one instance can I recall of a conservative being asked about Palin's record or qualifications, and their response being "She's a woman! And a mother of five, to boot!" Refresh my memory.


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Old 10-22-2009, 12:39 PM   #520
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I wouldn't phrase it as "trotted out as her qualifications" (though I too suspect you're deliberately taking Irvine more literally than he intended), but can you name any other candidate for VP or President who's referred that frequently to themselves as a "mom"/"dad," and talked about their family that often, on the campaign trail? Can you imagine a male VP candidate, in his debut national TV address, joking about how you "gotta love the soccer dads" like him? Yes, any VP/Pres candidate will allude to their family occasionally in order to shore up their 'regular guy/gal' cred, pose for Newsweek with their kids etc., but only a female politician playing to a socially conservative audience can get away with taking it that far, because in reality it's completely irrelevant to one's qualifications for that office, and if it were a man branding himself that way, that same audience would realize it and judge him accordingly.

This doesn't by itself make her unqualified; in theory, you could have the most stellar credentials imaginable and still fall back on this kind of smarmy pap to market yourself. But it's infantilizing to both the audience and the speaker, and that kind of dumbing down is the last thing American politics needs more of.
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