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Old 08-09-2009, 08:44 PM   #381
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I don't see this as a concerned mother having a reaction but as an opportunistic woman who is flat out lying and using her quasi-leadership position to influence a policy debate by introducing untruths to her followers who are uninformed and likely to believe what she is saying. Which is a 100% lie.
Bingo.
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Old 08-09-2009, 09:22 PM   #382
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Talk about painting with a broad brush... I could make a list of Republican politicians (or, you know, even recent Republican presidents) who have had death threats made against them, too. As has been said, there are crazies on both sides, and for people like you and Pelosi to make them out as the norm is very damaging to your side, and you seem to be unaware of it.
I said the people making the death threats were the same psycho's that are likely to blow up clinics. I was not broad brushing good ole mom and pop at the town meeting trying to "voice" dissent. Obviously you took it as such, and it's not what I meant, I apologize for not spelling it out for you clearly enough.
Oye veh.

Peace out, I'm outta here...
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:16 PM   #383
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She is - quite rightly - pro-family

wtf does this even mean?

i would think that universal health care coverage is about as pro-family as you can get. can you list for me the other Palin pre-August 2008 policies that are likewise pro-family? and you'll have to stick to domestic issues since she has no record of having any opinion on any international issues prior to the GOP convention.



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Not a very inclusive point of view, is it? Have you considered that people with Down Syndrome kids might have very legitimate concerns about such issues?
no. people with DS kids should be more concerned that their child will become a "pre-existing condition" that might prevent them from getting coverage from a profit-driven corporation rather than some Orwellian "death panel" forcing women to abort DS kids.


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No, not quite. They just passively encourage abortions of non-productive kids (er, sorry, I meant random collection of non-viable cells) by means of abortion on demand policies.

who "passively encourages" abortions? that's a massively biased and self-serving reading of the pro-choice position.

do you feel the same concern for little gay babies who might one day have the discovered "gay gene" and christofascist not-pro-life-in-this-case women might choose an abortion? or, worse, try to thump some heterosexuality into the boy at a young age?
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:20 PM   #384
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Oye veh.

Peace out, I'm outta here...

As a well known official spokesperson for the Israeli Government, it's my duty to say that it's spelled "oy vey".
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:21 PM   #385
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wtf does this even mean?

i would think that universal health care coverage is about as pro-family as you can get.

who "passively encourages" abortions? that's a massively biased and self-serving reading of the pro-choice position.
Exactly

These ignorant generalizations are getting quite tiresome.
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:31 PM   #386
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As a well known official spokesperson for the Israeli Government, it's my duty to say that it's spelled "oy vey".

and that's the only minute expression of remorse that the western imperialist New York and London funded pig Zionists will say after you nuke Iran into a sheet of glass.
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:46 AM   #387
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As a well known official spokesperson for the Israeli Government, it's my duty to say that it's spelled "oy vey".
What is the Israeli Government's opinion on health care anyway?
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Old 08-10-2009, 11:58 AM   #388
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As a well known official spokesperson for the Israeli Government, it's my duty to say that it's spelled "oy vey".
My bad I'm not up on my yiddish.
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:04 PM   #389
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Media Matters

Palin's spokesperson reportedly said Palin's assertion was a reference to House bill's "Advance Care Planning Consultation" provision. On his blog, ABC's Jake Tapper reported:

Asked specifically what the former governor was referring to when painting a picture of an Obama "death panel" giving her parents or son Trig a thumbs up or down based on their productivity, Palin spokeswoman Meghan Stapleton responded in an email: "From HR3200 p. 425 see 'Advance Care Planning Consultation'." [Political Punch, 8/7/09]

Provision Stapleton pointed to requires Medicare to cover voluntary end-of-life counseling sessions. Section 1233 of America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 -- which includes "p. 425" -- amends the Social Security Act to ensure that advance care planning will be covered if a patient requests it from a qualified care provider [America's Affordable Health Choices Act, Sec. 1233]. According to an analysis of the bill produced by the three relevant House committees, the section "[p]rovides coverage for consultation between enrollees and practitioners to discuss orders for life-sustaining treatment. Instructs CMS to modify 'Medicare & You' handbook to incorporate information on end-of-life planning resources and to incorporate measures on advance care planning into the physician's quality reporting initiative." [waysandmeans.house.gov, accessed 7/29/09]

Numerous media conservatives have advanced myth that provision provides seniors mandatory counseling to end their lives. On July 16, former New York Lt. Gov. Betsy McCaughey falsely claimed that the House health care reform bill would "absolutely require" end-of-life counseling for seniors "that will tell them how to end their life sooner." Since then, numerous media figures -- including Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, and Rush Limbaugh -- have echoed McCaughey's claim -- even after the falsehood was debunked and McCaughey herself backtracked.
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Old 08-11-2009, 04:01 PM   #390
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So talking to people about living wills and DNR requests now equals "death panels".

Nice job, Sarah!

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Old 08-11-2009, 04:04 PM   #391
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So talking to people about living wills and DNR requests now equals "death panels".
What? That doesn't make sense to you?
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Old 08-11-2009, 04:29 PM   #392
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Well, now that you mention it . . .

I guess all these years when I've had people speak at the senior center about living wills, instead of "free information about living wills", I should have put "free information about death panels" on the flyers. People probably would have paid more attention that way.
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:12 PM   #393
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time.com

Wednesday, Aug. 12, 2009
Ezekiel Emanuel, Obama's 'Deadly Doctor,' Strikes Back
By Michael Scherer / Washington

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the medical ethicist and oncologist who advises President Obama, does not own a television, and if you catch him in a typically energized moment, when his mind speeds even faster than his mouth, he is likely to blurt out something like, "I hate the Internet." So it took him several days in late July to discover he had been singled out by opponents of health-care reform as a "deadly doctor," who, according to an opinion column in the New York Post, wanted to limit medical care for "a grandmother with Parkinson's or a child with cerebral palsy."

"I couldn't believe this was happening to me," says Emanuel, who in addition to spending his career opposing euthanasia and working to increase the quality of care for dying patients is the brother of White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel. "It is incredible how much one's reputation can be besmirched and taken out of context."

It would only get worse. Within days, the Post article, with selective and misleading quotes from Emanuel's 200 or so published academic papers, went viral. Minnesota Representative Michelle Bachmann, a fierce opponent of Obama's reform plans, read large portions of it on the House floor. "Watch out if you are disabled!" she warned. Days later, in an online posting, former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin attacked Emanuel's "Orwellian thinking," which she suggested would lead to a "downright evil" system that would employ a "death panel" to decide who gets lifesaving health care. By Aug. 10, hysteria had begun to take over in places. Mike Sola, whose son has cerebral palsy, turned up at a Michigan town-hall meeting to shout out concerns about what he regarded as Obama and Emanuel's plans to deny treatment to their family. Later, in an interview on Fox News, Sola held up the Post article. "Every American needs to read this," he declared.

By this point, Emanuel, who has a sister who suffers from cerebral palsy, had arrived in northern Italy, where he planned to spend a week on vacation, hiking in the Dolomites. Instead, he found himself calling the White House, offering to book a plane home to defend his name. "As an academic, what do you have? You have the quality of your work and the integrity with which you do it," he said by phone from the Italian Alps. "If it requires canceling a week's long vacation, what's the big deal?"

The attacks on Emanuel are a reminder that there is a narrow slice of Americans who not only don't trust government, but also have come to regard it as a dark conspirator in their lives. This peculiar brand of distrust helps create the conditions for fast-moving fear-mongering, especially on complex and emotionally charged topics like the life and death of the elderly and infirm. Prairie fires of that kind are hard to douse when the Administration's own plan for health care remains vague, weeks away from being ready for a public rollout. The health-care bill that recently passed the House does not contain, as some have suggested, any provisions that would deny treatment to the elderly, infirm or disabled like Sola's son. One provision allows doctors to be reimbursed for voluntary discussions of so-called living wills with patients, but does not in any way threaten to deny treatment to dying patients against their will. The legislation anticipates saving hundreds of billions of dollars by reforming the health-care system itself, a process that would try to increase the efficiency of medical care by better connecting payments to health outcomes and discouraging doctors from unnecessary tests and procedures. The Obama Administration hopes that many of these reforms will be made in the coming years by independent panels of scientists, who will be appointed by the President and overseen by Congress.

This is where the criticism of Emanuel enters the picture, since he is just the sort of scientist who might be appointed to one of those panels. For decades, Emanuel has studied the ethics of medical care, especially in situations where a scarcity of resources requires hard decisions to be made. His work sometimes deals with the hardest possible decisions, like how to choose who gets a single kidney if there are three patients in need, or the reasons that doctors order tests with little medical value. Emanuel's reputation ranks him among the top members of his field. He is published often in the best journals; he has been given multiple awards for work to improve end-of-life care. At the White House, he has taken a free-floating role at the Office of Management and Budget, advising on a wide range of health issues.

But in a country where trust is in short supply, Emanuel has become a proxy for all the worst fears of government efforts to rein in costs by denying care. "The fundamental danger is that the American people are being asked to delegate all these life-influencing decisions," explains Betsy McCaughey, the conservative scholar who wrote the New York Post attack on Emanuel. "There is a lack of transparency here."

In her Post article, McCaughey paints the worst possible image of Emanuel, quoting him, for instance, endorsing age discrimination for health-care distribution, without mentioning that he was only addressing extreme cases like organ donation, where there is an absolute scarcity of resources. She quotes him discussing the denial of care for people with dementia without revealing that Emanuel only mentioned dementia in a discussion of theoretical approaches, not an endorsement of a particular policy. She notes that he has criticized medical culture for trying to do everything for a patient, "regardless of the cost or effects on others," without making clear that he was not speaking of lifesaving care but of treatments with little demonstrated value. "No one who has read what I have done for 25 years would come to the conclusions that have been put out there," says Emanuel. "My quotes were just being taken out of context."

For Emanuel, the entire experience has been a painful education in the sometimes brutal ways of politics, something his brother has long endured and dolled out. "I guess I have a better appreciation for what Rahm had to go through for years and years," Emanuel says. But that appreciation does not solve the question raised by the controversy. There is universal understanding that the nation's fiscal course is doomed without major changes to health care, but whom will the American people trust to carry it out?

Emanuel, for his part, plans to continue his work, which is focused on finding the most equitable and ethical way for this reform to be carried out, even if he has opted against returning from the Italian Alps. "I am an Emanuel," he says. "We are pretty thick-skinned. I am not going to change my colors. I am not going to crawl under a rock."
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:59 AM   #394
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To sum up everything...

Sarah Palin = An uneducated idiot

Im sorry conservatives... but that really is the way it is.
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:45 PM   #395
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To sum up everything...

Sarah Palin = An uneducated idiot

Im sorry conservatives... but that really is the way it is.
Either that or unbelievably cynical and manipulative.
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Old 08-13-2009, 03:40 PM   #396
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To sum up everything...

Sarah Palin = An uneducated idiot

Im sorry conservatives... but that really is the way it is.
to sum up your posts in the past week
Quote:
Sarah Palin = An uneducated idiot

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

These uneducated republicans are really scaring me.

Shows the education level of some of the people afraid of government socialism...

to put it simply, most republicans are paranoid and uneducated.
Do you ever tire of labeling and insulting those with differing political views as "idiots," "stupid" or "uneducated"?

Well, beats actual debate or having to put forth the effort to defend your views I suppose.
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:13 PM   #397
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to sum up your posts in the past week

Do you ever tire of labeling and insulting those with differing political views as "idiots," "stupid" or "uneducated"?

Well, beats actual debate or having to put forth the effort to defend your views I suppose.
While I agree that putting labels on large, diverse groups of people is generally wrong, I can't help but wonder - do you think Sarah Palin is intelligent? If so, can you explain why, and give examples of times she exhibited her intelligence?
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Old 08-13-2009, 04:56 PM   #398
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Back to the health care debate... I was sent this today and thought it was brilliant.
Ed Stein was the cartoonist at the (dearly departed) Rocky Mountain News. He has his own website now, EdSteinInk.com, and his cartoons are as brilliant as ever. He always writes something brief to go with them, but today he dedicated his time and space to this column. It's spot-on.

The Speech I Want Obama To Give
By Ed Stein | August 12th, 2009
My fellow Americans, I’m speaking to you today from the Oval Office on a subject of great importance to all of us. The past few weeks have seen the debate over health care reform turn into an ugly, angry, divisive shouting match. Senators and Congressmen have been shouted down, insulted, even threatened at town hall meeting all across the country, meetings designed to help inform the people of this country about the complex issues confronting us. I am ashamed and embarrassed by the behavior of Americans who should know better. I call upon the American people to stop the shouting, to restrain your anger, and to engage instead in a respectful conversation. I ask my colleagues in the Republican Party, the television and radio commentators and others who have stoked the anger and encouraged the mob mentality that has taken over this debate to appeal for calm and for a restoration of a civil dialogue.
So much misinformation has been disseminated, so much fear has been spread, that it is difficult to even know where to begin. A final health care plan has not been submitted to me. The details of the plans working their way through Congress are still being negotiated. It is my hope that a bipartisan agreement can still be achieved for a comprehensive reform of America’s health care system. So let us not debate the details of a program which has yet to be made final.
The real debate is about what kind of country we want to live in. I ask all Americans, whatever your political leanings, whatever your profession, whatever your income, to ask yourself these fundamental questions. Do you want to live in a country where almost 50 million of your fellow Americans are without health insurance? Do you want to live in a country where 20,000 people a year die of preventable or curable illnesses because the don’t have access to adequate health care? Do you want to live in a country where 2 million people a year go bankrupt because of medical costs, where 1.5 million homes are foreclosed because people have run out of money paying for medical care, where if you lose your job you lose your health insurance, a country where you can be denied health insurance because you have a pre-existing medical condition? A country where a sudden illness can destroy your economic future, even if you have a job and health insurance?
If you find those conditions acceptable, then we need do nothing, because that’s the country you live in now. Alone in the industrialized world, America, the wealthiest nation on earth, is the only country which allows these things to happen. Our current system of health care is broken, fatally broken, and when I took the job as President, I made it my first priority to fix it. I do not, I cannot believe, that Americans want the status quo to continue.
Now ask yourselves another question. What do the shouting mobs who are drowning out the debate offer in place of what we are proposing? What do the angry opponents want, other than the status quo? Do they have a plan for solving the problems? They offer you nothing but opposition to fixing what is broken. Some for political reasons; they simply want to hand my administration a defeat. Some because they fear that any change will affect their corporate bottom line. Those who have accumulated fabulous wealth from a system that impoverishes millions want to keep the money flowing. Some oppose change because they are ideologically opposed to anything that government might propose. Some because they fear any change. No wonder they are shouting. They cannot offer you a genuine solution to our broken health care system, so they drown out the voices of hope and change instead.
My fellow Americans, we are better than this. We are a nation which has always found a way to solve our most vexing problems. Even when the issues were the most divisive, we have pulled together in the darkest of hours and forged solutions to the most difficult of issues. Today I call upon all Americans to lower our voices, to listen to each other, to speak calmly and respectfully, and to work together to build a health care system that will provide excellent, affordable medical care to every citizen of this great country.
Thank you, and may God bless America.
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Old 08-13-2009, 05:36 PM   #399
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Do you ever tire of labeling and insulting those with differing political views as "idiots," "stupid" or "uneducated"?
Do you honestly think it's the differing views that get Palin slapped with these labels? I know plenty of conservatives that use the same labels for her... the honest ones.
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Old 08-14-2009, 02:39 PM   #400
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If so, can you explain why, and give examples of times she exhibited her intelligence?


to be fair, she does read all of the newspapers.
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