Sane Abortion Article To Start Insane Thread - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-06-2007, 08:37 AM   #41
ONE
love, blood, life
 
U2isthebest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vision over visibility....
Posts: 12,332
Local Time: 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Axver


I don't get this argument. You can just as easily argue in favour of abortion by asking "what if this person was going to be a murderer, a rapist, or a paedophile? What if Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, etc. had been aborted?" So I think it's pointless to deal with "what ifs"; it hurts the pro-life case just as much as it helps it.

Personally, I don't have a strong opinion either way. I'm trying to work out exactly where I stand. I don't believe any life that would be viable outside the womb should be aborted, but I'm not exactly knowledgeable about when a life becomes viable (I'd love to know, but I imagine there's extensive debate on the matter). I don't have a problem with terminating a pregnancy when the foetus is completely unviable, like in the first couple of weeks, and in any case where the mother's life is threatened, I wholeheartedly support the right to choose.
Interestingly enough, Hitler's mother was on her way to have him aborted, but she changed her mind at the last minute. I suppose, as you said, then my argument wouldn't work. I agree. Yet, Hitler still had a purpose in life. He just chose not to seek it out. He created one of the most horrible atrocities in human history, but that wasn't what God wanted for him; I think anyone who believes in God would agree with that. The argument I stated is polarizing. We don't know how people will turn out when they're born. Yet, if we're looking at the argument from a perspective of, this baby could turn out to be like Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden, etc. we might as well terminate every pregnancy and end the human race. If we're looking at it from my perspective, every baby could turn out to be like Martin Luther King Jr, Gahndi, Elie Wiesel, etc. logic fails. I suppose my argument is, I would rather see a child born and risk them being like horrible people named above, then have them not have a chance to live and wonder what the world could be missing out on. Don't mistake, I lean more towards the pro-choice side of the issue. If Roe v. Wade were overturned, more women would seek unsafe abortions that would put their lives in danger. We would likely have more women abandoning their babies after birth, etc. My argument is more from a wishful perspective of wanting every life to be that, a life. However, that would take more people willing to adopt, and more programs to help women in poverty, or any situations that may cause them to seek abortions to be implemented to help women care for their children in terms of healthcare, education, and every other area. In the U.S. at this time, I don't see that happening, so at this time, I think the laws for abortions need to remain as they are, although in a perfect world they wouldn't.
__________________

U2isthebest is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 08:57 AM   #42
Vocal parasite
 
Axver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: 1853
Posts: 152,977
Local Time: 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
This is what it boils down to for me as well. As soon as the Christian right starts campaigning for health care for all children, extensive maternity and paternity benefits, childcare, better working conditions, minimum wage, etc. then they might be able to call themselves "pro life". Otherwise, I would say they're simply "pro birth".
What I find especially bothersome is that it's the Christian right who are generally working hard against many of those things.

Let's have lots and lots of kids so they can earn a shitty wage, have dodgy and expensive healthcare, and give birth to babies when they can't support them. After all, charity should come from tithes, not the government!
__________________

__________________
"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

U2gigs: The most comprehensive U2 setlist database!
Gig pictures | Blog
Axver is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 10:27 AM   #43
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BrownEyedBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Pedro Sula, Honduras
Posts: 3,510
Local Time: 07:32 AM
I say this thread hits twelve pages.
BrownEyedBoy is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 12:35 PM   #44
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,739
Local Time: 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by U2isthebest


Interestingly enough, Hitler's mother was on her way to have him aborted, but she changed her mind at the last minute.
Interesting, never heard of that. Then again, not surprising. She was in a pretty desperate situation, yet not even knowing what she were giving birth to.

Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen

choosing to end a life.
Well, it's not like the woman wakes up one morning and decides, "Let's have an abortion."
For example, here in Europe you are only allowed to abort in the first trimester for non-medical reasons.
After that, it is only allowed for legal reasons.
Furthermore, before you actually abort there is a lot of mandatory counselling where the doctor informs you about potential consequences, alternatives, speaking to the father and so on. And for most women to abort is a serious psychological burden and they don't do it because they feel like it.

Abortion might be a great philosophical and religious topic, but I'm strongly against making "pro-life" a political issue.
Mainly because most all of the arguments are based on religious grounds, and they are far away from reality, because many of the leaders of this movement come from social backgrounds where they have really no clue about the reasons for women to abort. They idealize this sacred being of an unborn child, and as pointed out, very often don't care for what happens after the birth.

What Jesus might have said or wanted, and what is in the Bible (which even is debatable depending on what translation and interpretation you use) doesn't have any place in politics, except you are living in a theocratic state.

Mandating other people such an emotional, diverse and highly personal decision is not acceptable in a free society where there is a sophisticated medical system which tries everything it can to avoid any person from becoming unintentional pregnant (and even that is capable of development), and when it's for medical reasons, either because the child will be severely ill or the mother's life is at risk, no one has a say in it but the parents, with all the counselling needed.


We have no chance in predicting what the child might be capable of once born, so we have to remain neutral here and accept the parents' decision, in my opinion.
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 01:28 PM   #45
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega


Well, it's not like the woman wakes up one morning and decides, "Let's have an abortion."
So, you’re saying it’s not a decision? She may not go in that day, but it’s a decision she’s making.


Quote:


For example, here in Europe you are only allowed to abort in the first trimester for non-medical reasons.
After that, it is only allowed for legal reasons.
Furthermore, before you actually abort there is a lot of mandatory counseling where the doctor informs you about potential consequences, alternatives, speaking to the father and so on. And for most women to abort is a serious psychological burden and they don't do it because they feel like it.
This is great. I’m glad to hear a woman (and the father, I’m assuming) go through these steps before making the decision. However, you were equating the loss of life in a car accident to that of abortion, and by sharing this you’re only further illustrating my point: an accident and a conscious decision are two different things.

Quote:

Abortion might be a great philosophical and religious topic, but I'm strongly against making "pro-life" a political issue.
Mainly because most all of the arguments are based on religious grounds, and they are far away from reality, because many of the leaders of this movement come from social backgrounds where they have really no clue about the reasons for women to abort. They idealize this sacred being of an unborn child, and as pointed out, very often don't care for what happens after the birth.
I actually agree with you on the first part of this, and I can honestly say I respect the position of keeping abortion legal, but still being against it morally. I see where people are coming from with this perspective, I still disagree with it though. That said, I also don’t think the case against abortion should be made using religion either. I think it can be made without it. First, like I’ve mentioned before, if done 21 days after conception, there’s a beating heart. If you stop a beating heart outside of the womb, it’s murder. Heck, if a pregnant lady is murdered it’s considered two murders. Why the double standard?
Also, I’ve mentioned in other debates on this topic that my wife had an abortion before we met. She got pregnant and felt pressured into it and regrets it terribly. She’s undergone counseling for it and has had to overcome a lot of issues with it. She’s healing, but it’s been a long, difficult road. I’ve heard this from many, many other women. It’s not just a medical procedure being done. It’s not like a day-surgery kind of thing. It’s traumatic for many women. There’s a built-in bond that’s being broken and they often don’t know how hard it’s going to be to recover from breaking that bond — and this includes women who don’t have the religious views of abortion. My wife now shares her story openly to young women at our church and others so they can make a more informed decision should they find themselves in that situation.

Quote:

What Jesus might have said or wanted, and what is in the Bible (which even is debatable depending on what translation and interpretation you use) doesn't have any place in politics, except you are living in a theocratic state.
I agree with this except for the debatable part on the translation and interpretations. : )

Quote:

We have no chance in predicting what the child might be capable of once born, so we have to remain neutral here and accept the parents' decision, in my opinion.
Yes, you’re right – we can’t predict what a child might be capable of once born. That wasn’t my point. My point was just the thought that we may miss out on some really cool people who could add something special to life. It was a general statement using one illustration to make the point. That’s it. That said, I still think the most normal of lives, or most basic of lives, is valuable enough not to abort.
coemgen is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 01:33 PM   #46
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
Ahhh.. this is the argument that really drives me nuts.

Illegal bungie cord jumping off of bridges will happen no matter what too. There needs to be a safe way for that as well.


It's already been addressed that your argument holds no merit, so I will not say anything more than they did.

The bottom line is that this issue will never go away. Why? Because it will always be an opinion as to when life starts. Unlike some other major issues, both sides have merit in this case, and I can respect anyone on each side, as long as they aren't trying to press religion into law.

I think both sides (in general) need to respect the other a little more. I think all pro-lifers need to respect the fact that abortion isn't an easy decision, and that those getting abortions aren't trying to "kill babies." And I think pro-choicers need to respect that fact that pro-lifers truly want the best for each and every possible child.

Although, I think anyone who is pro-life and anti-gay rights is contradicting themselves. If you want parents to give children to adoption instead of aborting, then why would you prevent marriages between people that in many cases would be looking to adopt?
phillyfan26 is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 01:43 PM   #47
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 08:32 AM
I think another point to make about both sides of the issue is that we should both be working to reduce the amount of abortions. I think both sides can agree on this and like Jim Wallis has said in "God's Politics," let's first work on this area. I think it would allow both sides to better see where the other is coming from, too.
coemgen is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 01:46 PM   #48
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
For example, here in Europe you are only allowed to abort in the first trimester for non-medical reasons.
After that, it is only allowed for legal reasons.
Furthermore, before you actually abort there is a lot of mandatory counselling where the doctor informs you about potential consequences, alternatives, speaking to the father and so on. And for most women to abort is a serious psychological burden and they don't do it because they feel like it.
I would support our adopting that approach here--legal and readily available essentially without restrictions through the first trimester, afterwards only for reasons of medical necessity, as determined by a doctor.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 02:06 PM   #49
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,739
Local Time: 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen

So, you’re saying it’s not a decision? She may not go in that day, but it’s a decision she’s making.

No, not at all. I just say it's not a spontaneous decision like "Today I drink tea instead of coffee." It's generally a decision that either comes after a lot of time thinking and rethinking, or out of a state of desperation knowing one is not capable taking the responsiblity that comes with it, or sadly, because they weren't as careful with contraception as they ought to be.
And, as I pointed out, before the actual abortion is undertaking, a lot of counselling is involved.
I don't see why you say I'm implying there is no decision made.



Quote:
This is great. I’m glad to hear a woman (and the father, I’m assuming) go through these steps before making the decision. However, you were equating the loss of life in a car accident to that of abortion, and by sharing this you’re only further illustrating my point: an accident and a conscious decision are two different things.
The car accident example was rather employed because I thought the "Don't abort, you never know what this child would turn out to be, or do.", is dangerous as people might be starting to blame people for having aborted the potential "Mr/Ms AIDS Cure", saying that the car driver also could be the one who killed that potential child.
It was aimed at the "What might this child once become" argument, and rather indirectly at the abortion.

And, yes, abortion certainly is a conscious decision. If the doctor sees it's not whe mustn't perform the abortion.

Quote:
I actually agree with you on the first part of this, and I can honestly say I respect the position of keeping abortion legal, but still being against it morally. I see where people are coming from with this perspective, I still disagree with it though. That said, I also don’t think the case against abortion should be made using religion either. I think it can be made without it. First, like I’ve mentioned before, if done 21 days after conception, there’s a beating heart. If you stop a beating heart outside of the womb, it’s murder. Heck, if a pregnant lady is murdered it’s considered two murders. Why the double standard?
Also, I’ve mentioned in other debates on this topic that my wife had an abortion before we met. She got pregnant and felt pressured into it and regrets it terribly. She’s undergone counseling for it and has had to overcome a lot of issues with it. She’s healing, but it’s been a long, difficult road. I’ve heard this from many, many other women. It’s not just a medical procedure being done. It’s not like a day-surgery kind of thing. It’s traumatic for many women. There’s a built-in bond that’s being broken and they often don’t know how hard it’s going to be to recover from breaking that bond — and this includes women who don’t have the religious views of abortion. My wife now shares her story openly to young women at our church and others so they can make a more informed decision should they find themselves in that situation.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all about taking abortion lightly. I'm not for it if not necessary at all and think every alternative is better (except for medical reasons) than performing an abortion, especially preventing the pregnancy.

I would strictly oppose anyone who said, "Well, if it happens we will just go abort", of course.
But still I think it is very important for many reasons to keep it legal, and am strongly supporting the way it's done in Europe.

I would have to ask some expert in German/European law, because I don't know if it would be considered double-murder here either.
Nevertheless, abortion and murder are too different things and I don't think it's a double-standard. Again, I would encourage every person to consider every alternative there is over abortion.

I couldn't figure out how to word it properly, but in my post I pointed out that for most women it's not an easy decision beforehand, and is very often a traumatizing event for her, so if it didn't come across, I'm certainly aware of that and with you on that part.



Quote:
I agree with this except for the debatable part on the translation and interpretations. : )
I took that from the Bible discussions regarding homosexuality and abortion in other threads, where different translations were quoted time and time again (do you say so?) about certain parts of the Bible, and the interpretations of those sometimes were as different as chalk and cheese (German: as day and night ).

And having learned two different languages, there's one thing I've learned for sure: translating texts into another language, you will definitely have variations in those texts, and both would be technically right.


Quote:
Yes, you’re right – we can’t predict what a child might be capable of once born. That wasn’t my point. My point was just the thought that we may miss out on some really cool people who could add something special to life. It was a general statement using one illustration to make the point. That’s it. That said, I still think the most normal of lives, or most basic of lives, is valuable enough not to abort.
Of course, no one wants to deny a child to experience what life is, be it a basic life, or an outstanding one.
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 02:39 PM   #50
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 08:32 AM
Vincent, it sounds like we just misunderstood each other on the car accident scenario. I see where you’re coming from. The argument I was making could be made without the “potential person with a cure for AIDS” argument. No big deal now.

Also, I can tell you don’t take abortion lightly and I respect that. Even though we may disagree on some points, I can still see and respect where you’re coming from. Thanks for the discussion.

(P.S. I hope to get to Berlin one day. I’ve been to Köln. The cathedral there is impressive in many ways.)
coemgen is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 02:58 PM   #51
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
I think another point to make about both sides of the issue is that we should both be working to reduce the amount of abortions.
I agree, there was a thread on this not too far back, something that Hilary had stated.

I think the problem is a lot of the right won't budge. I've seen so many people, even in here who say they would rather not vote then to vote for someone who is pro-choice, even if every other issue was in line with their views.

I think a majority of the left will agree that the fewer abortions the better. The left will always support education. This is something I don't think a lot of the right understand, I don't think they understand that the left wants the fewest possible.
BVS is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 03:10 PM   #52
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 08:32 AM
Obama's said similar things, too. It just makes sense. All the bickering about the two polar extremes just prolongs the fact that people aren't being served here, only political egos are. Meanwhile, there's real shades of pain being experienced by people across this country in various situations surrounding this issue.
coemgen is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 03:12 PM   #53
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I agree, there was a thread on this not too far back, something that Hilary had stated.

I think the problem is a lot of the right won't budge. I've seen so many people, even in here who say they would rather not vote then to vote for someone who is pro-choice, even if every other issue was in line with their views.

I think a majority of the left will agree that the fewer abortions the better. The left will always support education. This is something I don't think a lot of the right understand, I don't think they understand that the left wants the fewest possible.
More abortions, fewer students, lower costs - duh'
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 03:13 PM   #54
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 30,343
Local Time: 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I agree, there was a thread on this not too far back, something that Hilary had stated.

I think the problem is a lot of the right won't budge. I've seen so many people, even in here who say they would rather not vote then to vote for someone who is pro-choice, even if every other issue was in line with their views.

I think a majority of the left will agree that the fewer abortions the better. The left will always support education. This is something I don't think a lot of the right understand, I don't think they understand that the left wants the fewest possible.
That's probably because that requires more sex education to get people to understand the issue, and the far right doesn't want sex education in schools.
phillyfan26 is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 05:29 PM   #55
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,739
Local Time: 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Vincent, it sounds like we just misunderstood each other on the car accident scenario. I see where you’re coming from. The argument I was making could be made without the “potential person with a cure for AIDS” argument. No big deal now.

Also, I can tell you don’t take abortion lightly and I respect that. Even though we may disagree on some points, I can still see and respect where you’re coming from. Thanks for the discussion.

(P.S. I hope to get to Berlin one day. I’ve been to Köln. The cathedral there is impressive in many ways.)
Yes, of course, it also could be the "I'd an amazing life, thanks for that!" kind of person.

Was nice to discuss, thanks as well.

Well, we can't offer you something impressive as the cathedral in Köln, I'm afraid, but I would definitely say it's worth a trip!
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 06:45 PM   #56
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,756
Local Time: 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
The bottom line is that this issue will never go away. Why? Because it will always be an opinion as to when life starts. Unlike some other major issues, both sides have merit in this case, and I can respect anyone on each side, as long as they aren't trying to press religion into law.

I think both sides (in general) need to respect the other a little more. I think all pro-lifers need to respect the fact that abortion isn't an easy decision, and that those getting abortions aren't trying to "kill babies." And I think pro-choicers need to respect that fact that pro-lifers truly want the best for each and every possible child.
. I'll fully agree with every word of this. All both sides need to do now is work together and reach a compromise figuring out how to at the very least start solving this problem. There's common ground in this issue we're all bound to agree on, after all.

Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
Although, I think anyone who is pro-life and anti-gay rights is contradicting themselves. If you want parents to give children to adoption instead of aborting, then why would you prevent marriages between people that in many cases would be looking to adopt?
Thank. You. I was hoping that argument would show up in here somewhere. I've always been really confused about that line of thinking as well. I also agree with all the other hypocrisy that's been mentioned in here as well...and another thing that's always bugged me has been watching people spend their days standing outside abortion clinics, calling women horrible names and yelling at them. They seem to think that by doing that they're solving things, when the truth is that they're really not-instead they're actually just making the situation more chaotic (not to mention hurting their own side even more. You don't get much support with such in-your-face methods). Once again, like you said, both sides have legitimate arguments, so it would really help if each side manages to express its viewpoint without being so harsh about it.

Angela
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 08:59 PM   #57
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BrownEyedBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Pedro Sula, Honduras
Posts: 3,510
Local Time: 07:32 AM
It must be very easy to want to force a woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy when one isn't pregnant themselves.
BrownEyedBoy is offline  
Old 11-06-2007, 09:48 PM   #58
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,892
Local Time: 08:32 AM
So far sanity seems to have ruled the day in this thread. . .

If only we could get the politicians and the nation as a whole to start talking about this issue in such a reasonable manner. . .

:fingerscrossed:
maycocksean is offline  
Old 11-07-2007, 07:57 AM   #59
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,563
Local Time: 09:32 AM
I still fail to see how this is even a political issue..... Why don't politicians care about what vitamins I take? How I treat my arthritis? Which pills my doctor subscribes? What is with people's obsessions over someone else's uterus?!?!?!

I just don't get it....
Liesje is offline  
Old 11-07-2007, 10:21 PM   #60
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,892
Local Time: 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Liesje
I still fail to see how this is even a political issue..... Why don't politicians care about what vitamins I take? How I treat my arthritis? Which pills my doctor subscribes? What is with people's obsessions over someone else's uterus?!?!?!

I just don't get it....
To be fair, the pro-lifer's don't view it as messing with someone else's utereus. They view it as saving the life of a human being. They wouldn't care about your vitamins or arthritis because a human life is not at stake.

One of the worst thing about the abortion debate is how each side frames the opposing argument from their own point of view.

Those pro-choice people who do not believe that abortion is murder but simply a woman making a decision about what happens to her own body are able to frame opponents as wanting to take away a woman's rights over her own body (though the pro-life people DO NOT view abortion the same way pro-choicers do).

Like wise, pro-life people who believe that abortion is murder are able to framer their opponents as soulless baby-killers, again disregarding that the pro-life point of view does NOT view abortion as murder.
__________________

maycocksean is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×