Same Sex Marriage Thread - Part III

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by jeevey

Have you seen the cover story on The Atlantic this month? It's not online yet, but it's called "What Straights Can Learn From Gay Marriage." It has a bunch of interesting info, such as that in lab interactions gay couples tend to fight fairer, with less aggression, dominance and whining. They also report greater sexual satisfaction that straights. The writer hypothesizes that this may be because, coming without relationship role scripts, they are better at working things out based on inclination and agreement, rather than, as you say, default.

i posted it earlier in this thread. it's a fascinating article.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by jeevey

They also report greater sexual satisfaction that straights.

This seems like a no-brainer to me.

If you own the equipment you know how it works.

[deep]

that's why I had my gay friend read to me a book about love making written by a lesbian

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i posted it earlier in this thread. it's a fascinating article.

Whoops. Sorry about that- I didn't read the whole thread.

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

this surprises me not at all:





i don't think there's anything inherently superior about gay parents, i don't think that children need two mothers or two fathers, i think that a mother and a father can likely do just as well as a gay family.

however, i do think that the gay people who choose to become parents are going to be much more successful group than straight parents as a whole, because for gay parents having children is absolutely opt-in, rather than default. it's totally optional and not obligatory, and because it takes so much work to become a gay parent, they're fully prepared not just for parenthood but for all the issues they know they're going to have to face as a gay family. it seems that all the obstacles gay people have had to face may have equipped them to actually be better parents.

I think you're spot on on the second part. If you can't take something for granted, you're much more likely to put in just that little bit more effort and thought into the decisions.

Though I'd say the social issues they tackle with their children could also be that they're more experienced on the topic, seeing as they had bullying for an example. I reckon most gay people have experienced some form of bullying in their life, so it's easier to recognize the signs with your own children if you've been in that situation yourself.

[deep]

In Gay Marriage Debate, Both Supporters and Opponents See Legal Recognition as ‘Inevitable’ | Pew Research Center for the People and the Press

[Pearl]

There are some notable exceptions, however. For example, Russia and China receive low scores on the religiosity scale, which would suggest higher levels of tolerance for homosexuality. Yet, just 16% of Russians and 21% of Chinese say homosexuality should be accepted by society. Conversely, Brazilians and Filipinos are considerably more tolerant of homosexuality than their countries’ relatively high levels of religiosity would suggest.

In Israel, where views of homosexuality are mixed, secular Jews are more than twice as likely as those who describe themselves as traditional, religious or ultra-Orthodox to say homosexuality should be accepted (61% vs. 26%); just 2% of Israeli Muslims share this view.

The Global Divide on Homosexuality | Pew Global Attitudes Project

Interesting point here. Religion is not the only reason why homophobia exists, albeit it plays a large role in many countries. I'd say the attitudes on what it means to be a man and woman is big factor, and it varies from culture to culture.

[Irvine511]

Agreed.

As I've said before, homophobia is really sexism in disguise.

If you think gay people are deserving of second class citizenship, you likely feel the same way about women.

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Agreed.

As I've said before, homophobia is really sexism in disguise.

If you think gay people are deserving of second class citizenship, you likely feel the same way about women.

Yes. Some people (Rhiane Eisler is a great one) hypothesize that the hysteria about gayness is really rooted in the desire to maintain gender dominance. People always have a bigger problem with gay men that with gay women, and that may be because they are refusing to hold the party line of what it means to be a man- to allow themselves to be receivers, like women are. Definitely it seems like that's the biggest "yuck factor" people have.

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by jeevey

Yes. Some people (Rhiane Eisler is a great one) hypothesize that the hysteria about gayness is really rooted in the desire to maintain gender dominance. People always have a bigger problem with gay men that with gay women, and that may be because they are refusing to hold the party line of what it means to be a man- to allow themselves to be receivers, like women are. Definitely it seems like that's the biggest "yuck factor" people have.

That's an interesting view on it, never thought of it like that but it does seem like it. I've always wondered why it's 'gross' to see two men making out, yet when two women do it it's suddenly considered 'hot. It makes no sense at all.

And then there's the whole macho culture thing, where the biggest machos usually turn out to be gay, yet they don't want to be perceived that way and thus turn into gay bullying assholes because they refuse to accept themselves.

[cobl04]

'I'm having a lesbian' billboard launched for gay marriage campaign | News.com.au

[Galeongirl]

Subtle ad, though I'm sure there'll be people crying out loud about it. But it's a subtle poke in the right direction!

[Irvine511]

this strikes me as kind of a big deal:

Group apologizes to gay community, shuts down 'cure' ministry
By Ed Payne, CNN
updated 10:39 AM EDT, Thu June 20, 2013

(CNN) -- After 37 years, Exodus International, an organization whose mission was to "help" gay Christians become straight, is shutting down. But not before issuing an apology.

"We're not negating the ways God used Exodus to positively affect thousands of people, but a new generation of Christians is looking for change -- and they want to be heard," Tony Moore, an Exodus board member, said Wednesday.

The announcement comes less than a day after Exodus issued a wide-ranging apology to the gay community for "years of undue judgment by the organization and the Christian Church as a whole," a statement from the group says.

"Exodus is an institution in the conservative Christian world, but we've ceased to be a living, breathing organism," said Alan Chambers, the president of Exodus. "For quite some time, we've been imprisoned in a worldview that's neither honoring toward our fellow human beings, nor biblical."

Chambers, who has a wife and children and previously identified as gay, has acknowledged that he has "ongoing same-sex attractions."

"It is strange to be someone who has both been hurt by the Church's treatment of the LGBTQ community, and also to be someone who must apologize for being part of the very system of ignorance that perpetuated that hurt," Chambers said. "Today it is as if I've just woken up to a greater sense of how painful it is to be a sinner in the hands of an angry church."

Exodus, which has promoted "freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ," has de-emphasized conversion therapy in recent years as more of the counselors in its network have abandoned the practice.

The American Psychological Association defines conversion therapy as aimed at changing sexual orientation, but adopted a resolution in 2009 condemning the practice.
In it, the organization said "mental health professionals should avoid telling clients that they can change their sexual orientation through therapy or other treatments."
But the same resolution also encouraged therapists to consider the religious beliefs of clients who say such beliefs are important to their views of homosexuality.

The APA removed homosexuality from its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in 1975.

But yet with the apology, some things have not changed, according to Chambers.
"I cannot apologize for my deeply held biblical beliefs about the boundaries I see in scripture surrounding sex, but I will exercise my beliefs with great care and respect for those who do not share them," he said. "I cannot apologize for my beliefs about marriage. But I do not have any desire to fight you on your beliefs or the rights that you seek."

With the closing of Exodus International, the board of directors voted to begin a new and separate ministry called Reduce Fear.

"This is a new season of ministry, to a new generation," Chambers said. "Our goals are to reduce fear, and come alongside churches to become safe, welcoming and mutually transforming communities."

It's meant to align with Jesus' New Testament message found in John 13:34 -- "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

"From a Judeo-Christian perspective, gay, straight or otherwise, we're all prodigal sons and daughters," Chambers said. "Exodus International is the prodigal's older brother, trying to impose its will on God's promises, and make judgments on who's worthy of His Kingdom.

"God is calling us to be the Father -- to welcome everyone, to love unhindered."

Group apologizes to gay community, then shuts down 'cure' ministry - CNN.com

[Pearl]

How great! Not just for shutting down, but for apologizing like that.

Here's an essay where John Shore, founder of Unfundamentalist Christians, denounced Christians for using the Bible for their bigotry:

God is all-powerful. If he wanted Christians to follow a simple, clear set of rules, then the New Testament would be a simple, clear set of rules. But it's not. Because God wants Christians to think more than that, to intuit more than that; God wants us to be more than that.
The Christian right only pretends to take the Bible seriously. But what they actually do is to take out of context, and then take very seriously indeed those few and far between words in the Bible that serve to bring them (gee, what a coincidence) the very power that they want.
They do not serve the Bible. They use the Bible to serve themselves. And, incredibly enough, they've learned to turn that fact into the ultimate in offensive weapon.

John Shore: Betraying the Spirit: How the Christian Right Gets the Bible Wrong

[Jive Turkey]

Are they taking the bible out of context though?

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Are they taking the bible out of context though?

No

[Galeongirl]

"Exodus is an institution in the conservative Christian world, but we've ceased to be a living, breathing organism," said Alan Chambers, the president of Exodus. "For quite some time, we've been imprisoned in a worldview that's neither honoring toward our fellow human beings, nor biblical."

I'm pretty impressed with that.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BVS

No

I'll go ahead an assume you misinterpreted who I was talking about

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I'll go ahead an assume you misinterpreted who I was talking about

Maybe, since you didn't quote I assumed it was the last posted quote. I shouldn't assume. I reread and saw what you were referring to, my apologies.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BVS

Maybe, since you didn't quote I assumed it was the last posted quote. I shouldn't assume. I reread and saw what you were referring to, my apologies.

Well hold on a second. Maybe I'm in the wrong here. I was referring to the last post (that's why I didn't bother quoting.. also, it's the kinda quote that doesn't quote on its own and I'm lazy). Here's the bit I was referring to

"The Christian right only pretends to take the Bible seriously. But what they actually do is to take out of context..."