Same Sex Marriage Thread - Part III

[Dalton]

Just heard an interesting interview with a player in which he said what I've been saying: players and teams are much more willing to have a gay teammate than they are with the media knowing they have a gay teammate. In other words, he doesn't care if a guy is gay, but he doesn't want it to be a distraction.

The best thing for Sam would be if a couple more guys came out before the season started. Once the lid gets blown off this thing, it'll settle back down to playing football. The majority of players, coaches, owners and fans don't care what a player does in his free time so long as he contributes on the field and doesn't distract the locker room.


The one part that a coworker and I started talking about this morning that I haven't heard anyone mention yet is what kind of HR policies will teams have to implement re: dating in the work place. Two guys breaking up midseason could be devastating for a locker room.

[Galeongirl]

The story made the news here, and we're all eagerly awaiting the response of football loving America. According to our sensationalist press, of course.

But I'm pretty impressed he dared to do this before the big draft. Now it's up to the big teams to show their support and open mindedness.

it would indeed be amazing if this started a snowball effect, with gay players coming out in several sports disciplines. That would be quite a movement.

[Irvine511]

ironically, it seems that the most seemingly gay friendly sports might also be the most homophobic. it might be easier for a gay football He-Man to come out than a Johnny Weir.

this is a long article, but absolutely fascinating:

Why Is The World's Gayest Sport Stuck In The Closet

To outsiders, men’s figure skating is widely perceived as the Gayest Sport Ever, the butt of endless jokes — consider last weekend’s SNL cold open about the “U.S. Men’s Heterosexual Figure Skating Team.” The direct action group Queer Nation has recently protested figure skaters Brian Boitano and Johnny Weir for not speaking up against Russia’s anti-gay laws. One of the group’s representatives, who asked to not be named, tells me, “Everyone assumes all male skaters are gay. So what? … I have a hard time believing that figure skating is a particularly homophobic sport. I don’t understand this impulse, particularly from figure skaters, to hide their sexuality. You can’t tell me that if Jeremy Abbott came out as gay that it would affect his standing in the skating world.”

To insiders, though, it’s no surprise that skaters are reluctant to speak out on LGBT rights, let alone come out themselves. Most male skaters and officials are committed to keeping their sport in the closet, whether that means choosing “masculine” music, hinting about a girlfriend, or outright denying any connection to homosexuality. A figure skater can never quite outskate the judges’ opinion of him, and judges and institutions, it turns out, are notoriously conservative — as some would say, “family-friendly.” At the National Championships, which took place this January in Boston, a phrase I heard often was “don’t ask, don’t tell.”

It’s not that skating hasn’t had out gay athletes. There’s Rudy Galindo, a ready-made hard-knock story who grew up in a trailer, abused alcohol and drugs, and lost two coaches and a brother to AIDS. Galindo came out publicly a few weeks before the 1996 U.S. nationals; he skated last in his group (a position that made it harder for the judges to artificially deflate his scores), and to everyone’s surprise, he won, becoming the first out national champion. When he was finally inducted into the U.S. Figure Skating Hall of Fame last year after having been rejected three times, his sexuality was not mentioned during the ceremony.

A decade later, skater Johnny Weir brought exquisite technical and artistic performances on the ice, but he also brought a reality-television show, a pop song (“Dirty Love”), and an outspoken diva-worship of Lady Gaga; a word often used to describe him was “flamboyant,” despite the fact that, until 2011, he kept his sexuality private. And last month, after 1988 gold medalist Brian Boitano was named to the U.S. Olympic Delegation to Sochi, he announced that he, too, was gay. Boitano’s enough of an established legend to be on the safe side, but it seems that in general, gay skaters are just a tad too implicating of the male skaters around them to be seriously endorsed. They are dismissed in countless subtle ways. One pump-up video montage at nationals showed clip after clip of top male skaters performing one enormous jump after another, but depicted Rudy Galindo crossing himself and Johnny Weir bursting into tears.

So what exactly is male figure skating — which has the potential to be a gay haven in the world of sports — so afraid of?

[LuckyNumber7]

Here's an interesting thought, albeit dangerous to state without coming off the wrong way.

It's hard to understand what really goes on in any locker room, in any sport.

In the NFL, the macho man culture speaks for itself. Being gay in the NFL might be the hardest of the four North American sports. Some might physically target you over your sexuality, in game.

In the NBA, that macho man culture isn't there. Basketball isn't the most physical of sports. And to no surprise, I imagine basketball to be one of the better of the four sports with gay athletes. There's a certain respect for players like Jason Collins, for example. Of course this isn't league-wide, that isn't expected. But, it's been seen several times that the thing to do in the wake of a gay slur in the NBA is to apologize to Jason Collins (lol).

In the MLB, I don't think that same respect culture exists. My theory behind that is that MLB culture is founded upon a lot of international players, unlike the NFL or NBA. There's no macho man culture, but I also suspect that baseball demands the least amount of education per player, on average. So, I do think that it might actually be most difficult I'm the MLB to actually change the culture.

Lastly, in the NHL, things don't stay consistent with the other three leagues. You again have the lack of education per player required. You've also got the most amount of international players. Yet, the NHL, publicly, is the strongest league in support of gay athletes. I imagine the source countries of these athletes actually work in the opposite way as opposed to the MLB.

I guess ultimately the question is... where is the source of homophobia most powerful in sports? Lack of education? Macho man culture? Basketball subculture (not to be confused with the NBA itself)? Backgrounds in nationality? The NFL might truly be the scariest sport to be gay in, but ultimately is it the hardest league to exhibit progressive change?

I honestly think that might be the MLB. I think that nationality thing is more powerful than anything else.

[Dalton]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

In the NFL, the macho man culture speaks for itself.

Wrong again.

Detorit Pistons v Indiana Pacers Brawl/Fight - "Malice in the Palace" | Biggest Fight In NBA History - YouTube

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by Dalton

Wrong again.

Oh there was a big fight a decade ago in basketball? You're right I'm sorry. Why don't you stick on topic and quit your trolling? You have added literally zero substance to a perfectly legitimate post open to discussion.

[Dalton]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

Oh there was a big fight a decade ago in basketball? You're right I'm sorry. Why don't you stick on topic and quit your trolling? You have added literally zero substance to a perfectly legitimate post open to discussion.

Perhaps you can stick to mindless arguments in a pointless hole instead of trying to speak about sports. You're out of your depths, Sparky.

[LuckyNumber7]

All I'm saying is... this is a discussion about same sex marriage and even I am deviating a bit off topic talking about homophobia in sports. If you disagree with a point I made, feel free to engage in discussion and state your opinion instead of choosing to respond the way you have.

[PhilsFan]

The NBA actually had the first openly gay professional athlete, and all 30 teams refused to sign him.

[Irvine511]

All thes professional sports teams have one thing in common: they are all made up of employees. The players are hired and fired at will, and they compete for a paycheck paid for by people buying merchandise and tickets for entertainment events.

Fuck whatever macho culture may exist. These are professional adults capable of acting like adults and adhering to whatever rules of conduct and behavior their employer expects of them. If someone doesn't like the thought of sharing a locker room with a gay guy, that's really his problem, and one he needs to get over much in the same way a lawyer or accountant would have to get over his issues with a gay person in his workplace. It's not on the gay person to make you comfortable. It's up to you to manage your shit.

It's just a job. There aren't lives at stake. It's not the military.

[Dalton]

Plus, if they play their cards right, they could get a free handy in the shower. Bonus.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Dalton

Plus, if they play their cards right, they could get a free handy in the shower. Bonus.

It certainly helps when you intuitively know how the equipment works.

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

All thes professional sports teams have one thing in common: they are all made up of employees. The players are hired and fired at will, and they compete for a paycheck paid for by people buying merchandise and tickets for entertainment events.

Fuck whatever macho culture may exist. These are professional adults capable of acting like adults and adhering to whatever rules of conduct and behavior their employer expects of them. If someone doesn't like the thought of sharing a locker room with a gay guy, that's really his problem, and one he needs to get over much in the same way a lawyer or accountant would have to get over his issues with a gay person in his workplace. It's not on the gay person to make you comfortable. It's up to you to manage your shit.

It's just a job. There aren't lives at stake. It's not the military.

I think it is still, by far, a cultural issue. One I never understood, but is widely accepted for some reason.

When two straight girls sleep in the same bed, it's ok, they're friends. When two straight men do this, it raises eyebrows, but ok, they're friends. Nothing would happen either way.
When a guy and a girl share a bed, eyebrows will perhaps be raised, but nothing might happen as they are just friends. Though one can argue that the guy will always try to make a move, but that's another cultural issue...

Yet when a gay person shares a bed with another person of the same gender, it is somewhat expected that they will make a move. That you cannot shower with a gay person without having them jump you. How the heck did people ever get this view?

Because I just do not understand it. It's just somehow different for gay people, it's awkward or whatever. But why? Sorry, but I'm not a rabbit. I don't mate with everyone I see, I too, have my types. If you're not my type, you're not my type and I don't look at you any different than all my other friends. I've shared beds with plenty of both male and female friends, for sleeping purposes. Did I try jumping any of them? Hell no. Did I want to? Eh, hell no? It's just the same for both, and if I happen to like someone, be it male or female, I like that person. But that doesn't mean I'm suddenly a rabid sexual deviant that cannot control their urges or whatever..

The whole issue with gay athletes and locker room situation, how is that even an issue? I just don't get it.

[Irvine511]

nm.

[Dalton]

GG, I actually think you're making the opposite argument than you are proving your point.

I'm a hetero dude. If I'm constantly showering or sharing a bed with women, i'm going to eventually make a move. Its normal to assume the same about gay men.

The issue isn't attraction in my book, it's about professionalism. I work with many attractive women. I am often with them in situations that lend themselves toward intimacy. Do I pursue those chances? No because I'm a professional and that would be inappropriate.

Do I think gay dudes will be turned on at some level constantly showering with other guys? Yes. If they're not, I'd tell them to see a doctor. But all of my friends aren't going to act on that, because like me they're professionals and have restraint.

[Dalton]

Ha. Just had a great conversation with one of my partners on this topic. It's our belief that men's default position is to believe that everyone is sexually attracted to us.

Therefore, is it more offensive if a gay man is UNattracted to you while naked in a locker room?

Homophobia meet pride.

[Dalton]

I know I'm kicking this thing to death, but I just heard an interesting topic on Collin Coward's radio program. One of his listeners texted in that we need to consider the fact that straightman may be uncomfortable showering with gay men. Collin, per usual, went off on a quick rant about how it doesn't matter if they are uncomfortable.

While I agree with that sentiment, it does bring up an interesting thought. I would imagine that if a company forestay woman to shower with men, she could claim it was a hostile work environment and she would win. What will the sexual-harassment ramifications be in this case? Very interesting.

[anitram]

There is no way that any company would require women and men to shower together.

But is there a requirement for men to shower together in other places? If this is such a concern, why can't they build private/individual shower stalls?

[Galeongirl]

Is that really the case? Or is it just the general consensus?

I've had a male best friend for 10 years, not once did either of us make a move. We even talked about it for a while but netiher of us was attracted to each other. We slept in the same bed a couple of times. So in your idea he was supposed to make a move on me? Something wrong with him then?

If men are uncomofortable showering with other men, then don't shower with them. Maybe I just don't get that, I mean, it's like the age old thing that girls get mad when guys look at their boobs. Why do you get mad? It's biologically programmed that way, and I'd consider it a compliment instead. A little nod, hey, nice boobs. Thanks. Done. With all the shaming and the shouting, aren't women making it worse than it is? I think they are.

In this case, if everyone just minded their own business and took a goddamn shower, there is no problem. The problem is the assumptions people have.

[Dalton]

Originally Posted by anitram

There is no way that any company would require women and men to shower together.

Exactly to the point. Why? Aren't we all part of the same species? We've already established that men have the ability to control themselves, so they wouldn't be in danger. So why would a company never require it to happen? Sex.

That's what any lawyer would begin to argue in a sexual harassment case. All that needs to happen is to have a guy (and you'd have to guess that some right wing nut would - except in the nfl - more on that in a minute) complain that he feels uncomfortable at work because he has to shower with a person who is, potentially, looking at him sexually and he's got a case.

The Jonathan Martin/Richie Incognito situation makes this even more interesting in the NFL. In that case, we see that the harassment had been going on for a long period of time and yet Martin didn't dare confront it because it was part of the culture. The NFL has been scrambling like a mofo to cover their ass because they know they'd lose that case handily if Martin chooses to bring it.

Yet couldn't the same be said about the showering situation? A guy would have to single himself out by requesting private showers or a separate locker room.

Like I said, this is interesting.

Now, I know many of you are crazy emotional and irrational on this topic , so let me spell this out for you - I don't give a flying fuck if I shower with a gay man. So, let's think through this logically on how this could play out.