Same Sex Marriage Thread - Part III

[The Sad Punk]

I'm surprised and bitterly disappointed that neither Tassie or SA have legalised it yet. I honestly thought the former at least would get it last year.

 

[deep]

I would say I don't care what a private group does, but I don't like being mean to kids, so I think this is a 'net' good thing

Boy Scouts vote to lift ban on gay youth - U.S. News


I am sure that many on both sides of the issue will be complaining.

 

[cobl04]

Absolutely, because gay leaders are still banned. Boy Scouts of America might as well just come out and call gay adults paedophiles.

 

[Galeongirl]

pew pew

Far-right French historian, 78-year-old Dominique Venner, commits suicide in Notre Dame in protest against gay marriage - Europe - World - The Independent

Wow. Yeah, THAT'll teach those fighting for equal rights. Now everyone's mind is suddenly reverted back to his own ancient views.



What's the bloody point of killing yourself over something like this?

 

[BEAL]

Wow. Yeah, THAT'll teach those fighting for equal rights. Now everyone's mind is suddenly reverted back to his own ancient views.

What's the bloody point of killing yourself over something like this?

Me thinks he had his own demons about sexuality and this was tipping point

 

[Pearl]

Supposedly, he also killed himself over the possibility of Sharia Law coming to France.

I guess liberté, égalité, fraternité meant something different for him.

 

[Irvine511]

absolutely fascinating and long article about SSM, and one i'd highly encourage our more conservative posters to read -- it's in no way a polemic, and it addresses "concerns" about SSM, and also points us in new and fascinating directions, and it might say as much about heterosexual men and women as it does about gay relationships.

too much to paste here, but this is what i found interesting:

The belief that gay marriage will harm marriage has roots in both religious beliefs about matrimony and secular conservative concerns about broader shifts in American life. One prominent line of thinking holds that men and women have distinct roles to play in family life; that children need both a mother and a father, preferably biologically related to them; and that a central purpose of marriage is abetting heterosexual procreation. During the Supreme Court arguments over Proposition 8, Justice Elena Kagan asked Cooper whether the essence of his argument against gay marriage was that opposite-sex couples can procreate while same-sex ones cannot. “That’s the essential thrust of our position, yes,” replied Cooper. He also warned that “redefining marriage as a genderless institution could well lead over time to harms to that institution.”

Threaded through this thinking is a related conviction that mothers and fathers should treat their union as “permanent and exclusive,” as the Princeton professor Robert P. George and his co-authors write in the new book What Is Marriage? Man and Woman: A Defense. Marriage, seen this way, is a rigid institution that exists primarily for the rearing of children and that powerfully constrains the behavior of adults (one is tempted to call this the “long slog ’til death” view of marriage), rather than an emotional union entered into for pleasure and companionship between adults. These critics of gay marriage are, quite validly, worried that too many American children are being raised in unstable homes, either by struggling single parents or by a transient succession of live-in adults. They fear that the spread of gay marriage could help finally sever the increasingly tenuous link between children and marriage, confirming that it’s okay for dads, or moms, to be deleted from family life as hedonic fulfillment dictates.

In mounting their defense, advocates of same-sex marriage have argued that gays and lesbians who wish to marry are committed to family well-being; that concern for children’s welfare is a chief reason many do want to marry; that gay people are being discriminated against, as a class, in being denied rights readily available to any heterosexual. And to the charge that same-sex marriage will change marriage, they tend to argue that it will not—that married gays and lesbians will blend seamlessly with the millions of married straight Americans. “The notion that this group can somehow fundamentally change the institution of marriage—I find it difficult to wrap my head around,” says Gary Gates, a demographer with the Williams Institute, a research center affiliated with the UCLA School of Law.

Gay marriage can function as a controlled experiment, helping us see which aspects of marital difficulty are truly rooted in gender and which are not. But what if the critics are correct, just not in the way they suppose? What if same-sex marriage does change marriage, but primarily for the better? For one thing, there is reason to think that, rather than making marriage more fragile, the boom of publicity around same-sex weddings could awaken among heterosexuals a new interest in the institution, at least for a time. But the larger change might be this: by providing a new model of how two people can live together equitably, same-sex marriage could help haul matrimony more fully into the 21st century. Although marriage is in many ways fairer and more pleasurable for both men and women than it once was, it hasn’t entirely thrown off old notions and habits. As a result, many men and women enter into it burdened with assumptions and stereotypes that create stress and resentment. Others, confronted with these increasingly anachronistic expectations—expectations at odds with the economic and practical realities of their own lives—don’t enter into it at all.

Same-sex spouses, who cannot divide their labor based on preexisting gender norms, must approach marriage differently than their heterosexual peers. From sex to fighting, from child-rearing to chores, they must hammer out every last detail of domestic life without falling back on assumptions about who will do what. In this regard, they provide an example that can be enlightening to all couples. Critics warn of an institution rendered “genderless.” But if a genderless marriage is a marriage in which the wife is not automatically expected to be responsible for school forms and child care and dinner preparation and birthday parties and midnight feedings and holiday shopping, I think it’s fair to say that many heterosexual women would cry “Bring it on!”

Beyond that, gay marriage can function as a controlled experiment, helping us see which aspects of marital difficulty are truly rooted in gender and which are not. A growing body of social science has begun to compare straight and same-sex couples in an attempt to get at the question of what is female, what is male. Some of the findings are surprising. For instance: we know that heterosexual wives are more likely than husbands to initiate divorce. Social scientists have struggled to explain the discrepancy, variously attributing it to the sexual revolution; to women’s financial independence; to men’s failure to keep modern wives happy. Intriguingly, in Norway and Sweden, where registered partnerships for same-sex couples have been in place for about two decades (full-fledged marriage was introduced several years ago), research has found that lesbians are twice as likely as gay men to split up. If women become dissatisfied even when married to other women, maybe the problem with marriage isn’t men. Maybe women are too particular. Maybe even women don’t know what women want. These are the kinds of things that we will be able to tease out.

The Gay Guide to Wedded Bliss - Liza Mundy - The Atlantic

 

[Pearl]

Beyond that, gay marriage can function as a controlled experiment, helping us see which aspects of marital difficulty are truly rooted in gender and which are not. A growing body of social science has begun to compare straight and same-sex couples in an attempt to get at the question of what is female, what is male. Some of the findings are surprising. For instance: we know that heterosexual wives are more likely than husbands to initiate divorce. Social scientists have struggled to explain the discrepancy, variously attributing it to the sexual revolution; to women’s financial independence; to men’s failure to keep modern wives happy. Intriguingly, in Norway and Sweden, where registered partnerships for same-sex couples have been in place for about two decades (full-fledged marriage was introduced several years ago), research has found that lesbians are twice as likely as gay men to split up. If women become dissatisfied even when married to other women, maybe the problem with marriage isn’t men. Maybe women are too particular. Maybe even women don’t know what women want. These are the kinds of things that we will be able to tease out.

Oh gosh, imagine such studies show that some sexist stereotypes have a lot of truth to them? That would be both fun and embarrassing.

 

[Irvine511]

in my experience, you get a truer sense of how men and women are different by observing differences between gay men and lesbians.

which, in a way, is kind of ironic, especially since many gays and lesbians feel entirely liberated from gender roles and expectations. yet it seems that there are some things that, in general, are man things, and some that are female things.

 

[Galeongirl]

It's a great article indeed. Especially the piece on equality. Though society is shifting, it is rather obvious that most people are still stuck in their assumptions of what a man should do, and what a woman should. It's the standard gender roles, and even though we're a lot more open minded now, you still get weird responses if you were a stay at home dad with a fulltime working mother. Some would perceive that as wrong, becuase the mother 'should' be there for the kids. Of course, in the early years that's biologically true as the mother has a different bonding, but when the kids go to school? Is dad not able to make sandwiches and love his kids? I doubt it.

Besides that, figuring out the roles when there's no predefined gender assigned tasks requires MUCH more communication. That's where most straight marriages fall short and end up in divorce, usually it's a lot of added problems that all root in a lack of communication. Yet when you need to talk about a lot of things already, it gets easier to talk about the little things as well.

I don't have any numbers, but I'd love to see a comparison between divorce rate of gay and straight people. I've a feeling they'd be rather different.

Gotta love how the anti-SSM people immediately link marriage to kids. How many straight people nowadays have kids without getting married? And how many straight couples get married without having kids? One really can go without the other..

 

[Pearl]

Besides that, figuring out the roles when there's no predefined gender assigned tasks requires MUCH more communication. That's where most straight marriages fall short and end up in divorce, usually it's a lot of added problems that all root in a lack of communication. Yet when you need to talk about a lot of things already, it gets easier to talk about the little things as well.

I don't have any numbers, but I'd love to see a comparison between divorce rate of gay and straight people. I've a feeling they'd be rather different.

I'd like to see that too, but I've read a few articles that say that even same-sex couples have communication problems despite being of the same gender. Some think two men or two women would have flawless communication, but not so.

in my experience, you get a truer sense of how men and women are different by observing differences between gay men and lesbians.

which, in a way, is kind of ironic, especially since many gays and lesbians feel entirely liberated from gender roles and expectations. yet it seems that there are some things that, in general, are man things, and some that are female things.

There is irony in that. I heard most SSM is between lesbians rather than gay men, but I don't know if that's really a fact.

 

[anitram]

Thanks Irvine for posting that - very good and thought provoking article.

It is interesting to me that (generally) as a society we have placed an emphasis on ridding ourselves of pre-defined gender roles. No, we are not there yet, but we are certainly at least at a place where our girls aren't pushed into nursing/teaching careers exclusively; today, they also believe that they can be doctors and corporate lawyers and both medical school and law school admissions attest to that. We have also had the corporate world begin to embrace a variety of diversity initiatives, provide cultural sensitivity training and so on. Businesses are realizing the value of having women on Boards and minorities in executive positions, especially in today's global marketplace where clients and customers are no longer just old, white men. So there has been a lot of progress with respect to gender equity, at least among western democracies. From education, to hiring, to fair pay practices, to voting, to running for political office, etc. It is no longer socially acceptable to behave like a total lout with respect to gender issues (I'm thinking Rush Limbaugh and his ilk). Their following is small, extreme and frankly mostly inconsequential.

And yet when it comes to SSM, the discussion of roles within a marriage and child-rearing is dominated, on the right, by people who are still pushing the old, rigid gender role theories. We now know that women can be successful executives, that they can graduate at the top of their Harvard MBA class, that they can head engineering firms, have PhDs in physics, lead nations. But suddenly when it comes to marriage, they are incapable of breaking out of their traditional roles? Is it not obvious that children who have married, heterosexual parents these days are being reared by people who don't fit those stereotypical roles in the way that they did in our parents' generation? I know of a number of people where the mother in the household is the executive who makes 3-4x as much as the father, where the father is a stay-at-home husband, where the mother never learned how to cook and certainly can't bake, where the father drives the kids to school and picks them up and so on. It is already a reality in heterosexual families that gender roles are NOT defined as they were in the past. So the idea that a mother and a father has a specific, defined, immutable role being used as an argument against SSM makes no sense unless you are going to demand that heterosexual parents revert back to traditional gender roles of the 50s.

 

[Irvine511]

I don't have any numbers, but I'd love to see a comparison between divorce rate of gay and straight people. I've a feeling they'd be rather different.

my understanding is that, right now, the "gay divorce rate" is actually much lower than for straight people. but that's probably because the gay people who have gotten married in recent years have been successful long established couples who have lived together for decades. i also think that gay people will look at marriage with extreme caution and give it serious care and consideration, much like they do with having children, because it isn't something they expect to happen, nor is there quite as much pressure to get married like there is on heteros, especially hetero women.

also, you'll never have a gay shotgun wedding.

and in a moment of levity:

Watch Saturday Night Live: New Xanax online | Free | Hulu

 

[Galeongirl]

I'd like to see that too, but I've read a few articles that say that even same-sex couples have communication problems despite being of the same gender. Some think two men or two women would have flawless communication, but not so.

Oh I certainly wouldn't claim the communication is flawless. But I have to admit, it's truly different. As I've been in both kind of relations, I'm finding it much easier to communicate with another woman, because they seem to understand things easier. Sure that could highly depend on the person, but I think the whole men are from mars, women from venus may be right after all.

my understanding is that, right now, the "gay divorce rate" is actually much lower than for straight people. but that's probably because the gay people who have gotten married in recent years have been successful long established couples who have lived together for decades. i also think that gay people will look at marriage with extreme caution and give it serious care and consideration, much like they do with having children, because it isn't something they expect to happen, nor is there quite as much pressure to get married like there is on heteros, especially hetero women.

also, you'll never have a gay shotgun wedding.

and in a moment of levity:

Watch Saturday Night Live: New Xanax online | Free | Hulu

I would expect that indeed. It's much more 'serious' for gay couples than it is for straight couples. These days with the Vegas weddings and people proposing on a hunch, there's a much less stable foundation. Whilst if you've been together with someone for years on, it's easier to make it work. Sure that applies for straight couples as well, but as you said, gay couples are MUCh less likely to make spur of the moment decisions like that.

 

[Irvine511]

but over time, i'm sure gay people will get more and more impetuous and young and foolish and become more and more like straight people. i expect the gay divorce rate to go up.

it did surprise me, though, that lesbians seem to divorce at a higher rate than gay men.

but then, the more i thought about it, the more sense it made. it's counterintuitive, but i get it.

 

[Pearl]

but over time, i'm sure gay people will get more and more impetuous and young and foolish and become more and more like straight people. i expect the gay divorce rate to go up.

Honestly, I think the same will happen too. Human beings have a good history of being foolishly spontaneous.

 

[anitram]

To be fair, most people that I know who are either having relationship problems or divorced are not the sort who got married on a whim a la Britney Spears. They're people who may have been together for many years before getting married.

Relationships are complex at the end of the day.

 

[Galeongirl]

but over time, i'm sure gay people will get more and more impetuous and young and foolish and become more and more like straight people. i expect the gay divorce rate to go up.

it did surprise me, though, that lesbians seem to divorce at a higher rate than gay men.

but then, the more i thought about it, the more sense it made. it's counterintuitive, but i get it.

True that. But for now at least it'll be a good start.



Hey, two women, twice the periods and hormones. It's obvious man, c'mon!

 

[deep]

Sounds like the common denominator in divorce rates is women.

Men are better at marriage.

 

[Galeongirl]

Yeah cause they're too stubborn to give up on something. male pride and everything.

 

[Irvine511]

I think men aren't quite as burdened by social expectations as to "the way things should be."

It's death by 1001 Katherine Heigel movies.

 

[deep]

this does not really belong here, but I did not want to start a new thread

so being lazy, and because of the same sex angle

Florida teen rejects plea deal in controversial same-sex case - CNN.com

 

[Pearl]

this does not really belong here, but I did not want to start a new thread

so being lazy, and because of the same sex angle

Florida teen rejects plea deal in controversial same-sex case - CNN.com

I'm mixed about this issue. On one hand, the elder girl was 18 and the younger one was 14, so that is statutory rape no matter what. But the outrage and attention is greater here because its a same-sex relationship. Also, the way Hunt "acted out" was no different from a straight girl being told she can't see her boyfriend. Some people are trying to make this case proof that homosexuality is devious and gays are coming for the children.

 

[martha]

We had two families keep their kids home from my school on Harvey Milk Day because a "Christian" radio station told them to. It was "against their core values." Here's the kicker: no one on our staff even knew it was Harvey Milk Day, and only about three of the staff knew who Harvey Milk was, and then I think I was the only one who knew who he was beyond the movie.

:theresnotabigenougheyerollforthis:

 

[deep]

good for those parents

I'm sick of the dairy lobby.

 

[martha]

The Dairy Agenda is taking over our schools.

 

[IWasBored]

Whole milk is what's making our country fat, you know.

 

[jeevey]

Sounds like the common denominator in divorce rates is women.

Men are better at marriage.

Atlantic magazine's cover feature this week makes the very same assertion. Gay men are actually the least likely to divorce, and lesbians are more likely than straights. Gay men also have the highest rates (many, many times higher) of open, allowed steps out side the relationship.

So, rather than 'better at marriage' there may be a different set of expectations about what marriage will be.

 

[Galeongirl]

We had two families keep their kids home from my school on Harvey Milk Day because a "Christian" radio station told them to. It was "against their core values." Here's the kicker: no one on our staff even knew it was Harvey Milk Day, and only about three of the staff knew who Harvey Milk was, and then I think I was the only one who knew who he was beyond the movie.

:theresnotabigenougheyerollforthis:

Dare I ask what Harvey Milk Day is?

 

[martha]

Harvey Milk was an openly gay elected member of the San Francisco Board of Supervisors who was assassinated by the dipshit who originated the "Twinkie Defense." Milk was a gay rights activist before that. California's legislature made May (insert date here) Harvey Milk Day.

The movie Milk is terrific and should be in your Netflix queue.