Same Sex Marriage Thread - Part III

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Probably both. And you can act indignant all you want, but you know this to be true. We're moving in the right direction, but we're not there yet.


i wasn't acting indignent. i was implying that it's less of an issue for the players than it would be for the owners and the anonymous NFL "sources" who are talking about what an issue it's going to be.

i think he's very brave. i think he's chosen integrity over money. this is a Jackie Robinson moment.

but i also don't think we should make narrow assumptions about the players and sports fans themselves, especially since his present teammates seem to like him a great deal.

winning seems to help people overcome idiocy. and as we've seen in the military, gays can inflict violence and pain as well as anyone else.
 
It happens in every sport. Player takes a moral crusade of sorts, everyone is on his or her side, but then of course it's all that the media begins talking about, and coaches and teammates start getting asked about it, and it subsumes them as well. It does become a distraction.

It's been levied at one of our players here, Harry O'Brien. He's struggled with mental health issues, and he's also seen as something of a moral crusader. He talks about poverty and all that sort of thing. Personally I think it's great, and I'd like to see more footballers doing it, but last season it got to a point where it became a major distraction for his football club.
 
i wasn't acting indignent. i was implying that it's less of an issue for the players than it would be for the owners and the anonymous NFL "sources" who are talking about what an issue it's going to be.

i think he's very brave. i think he's chosen integrity over money. this is a Jackie Robinson moment.

but i also don't think we should make narrow assumptions about the players and sports fans themselves, especially since his present teammates seem to like him a great deal.

winning seems to help people overcome idiocy. and as we've seen in the military, gays can inflict violence and pain as well as anyone else.

I agree. He's incredibly brave and his making the announcement before the draft is amazing. But even if every teammate and every fan and every executive and every owner were on board with this (they're not), it would still be a distraction because he's the first. It's going to be a huge media blitz (rightfully so) and that will take players focus off other things. In the NoFunLeague - that's the greatest sin.

Same thing with Mante Teo last year. The biggest questions about him going into the draft wasn't about his football abilities, but the drama of his love life.

In other news, I spend a good part of my mornings with sports radio playing. For purely selfish reasons, I wish every gay athlete would come out all at once and be done with it. I long for a day when the only time I have to hear about gay athletes is if they're dating a model or another famous person or they get caught with their dick through a truck stop wall.

Gay men are in all walks of life and some of them are really fucking talented. Hooray. Let's talk about that.
 
i agree it will be very interesting to see how the NFL deals with him. i don't know much about football, but Tebow and Jesus seemed to be an issue. and that Stanford grad thug with the 3.9 GPA.

here's some food for thought:

During a preseason practice this past summer, the defensive end Michael Sam told his teammates on the University of Missouri football team that he was gay. Then he went on to lead the Southeastern Conference in sacks and win the league’s Defensive Player of the Year award. The Tigers went 12-2 and won the Cotton Bowl. It was a good year.

On Sunday night, Sam came out as gay in interviews with the New York Times and ESPN. Prior to his announcement, Sam had been predicted by analysts as being a likely selection in anywhere between the third and seventh rounds in the N.F.L. draft, this May. A third-round selection would mean that he’d have a very good chance of being signed by the team that drafts him, while a selection in the later rounds would make his prospects more unsure. If he makes a team, he would be the first openly gay player in the N.F.L. Sam’s breakout performance this past season elevated his draft stock, yet there are concerns that he may be too small to play his position in the pros, and would have to be converted to linebacker.

But it is not Sam’s football abilities that will prove controversial among N.F.L. scouts, executives, and coaches over the next few months. Already, on Sunday, Sports Illustrated quoted a handful of unnamed league sources who predicted that Sam’s coming out would hurt his position in the draft. An assistant coach, quoted anonymously, said:

There are guys in locker rooms that maturity-wise cannot handle it or deal with the thought of that…. There’s nothing more sensitive than the heartbeat of the locker room. If you knowingly bring someone in there with that sexual orientation, how are the other guys going to deal with it? It’s going to be a big distraction. That’s the reality. It shouldn’t be, but it will be.

An unnamed “personnel assistant” said that the league wasn’t ready for a gay player: “In the coming decade or two, it’s going to be acceptable, but at this point in time it’s still a man’s-man game.”

When it comes to gay male athletes in professional sports, this talk of the locker room is often a euphemism for “the showers,” meaning the purported fear that some straight players would have in showering or changing next to a gay teammate. (Never mind that they surely have been doing so, perhaps even knowingly, since the day they started playing.) But it also extends to what has become the “D” word when it comes to gay players, or players who become identified as outliers for other reasons: distraction. Richard Sherman was branded as a distraction after he revealed himself to be excited after making the Super Bowl, and chided for putting himself before his team. (Things worked out fine for Seattle.) And, so the thinking goes, Michael Sam, and his sexuality, will be a distraction, as well. Football teams operate as machines, the thinking goes, and franchises want conformity from their players. As former Minnesota Vikings punter and gay-rights activist Chris Kluwe recently said to ESPN: “In the ideal NFL world, you show up to play on Sundays, and that’s it—they take you out of your box and put you back in.”

Yet it is deeply unfair and disingenuous of N.F.L. personnel to somehow suggest that Michael Sam has made himself into a distraction by coming out. Rumors about his sexual orientation were reportedly already being passed around by teams. And, last year, the word leaked that, before the draft, teams were asking prospective players questions like “Do you have a girlfriend?” and “Do you like girls?” Sam hasn’t made his sexual orientation a so-called “issue,” he simply took control of his story before the N.F.L. could.

Meanwhile, for the people saying saying that football players simply couldn’t tolerate a gay player in their midst, there is, thankfully, evidence to suggest otherwise. Just look at the Missouri Tigers. Speaking of the effect that his announcement had on his college team, Sam explained to the Times, “I never had a problem with my teammates. Some of my coaches were worried, but there was never an issue.” (On Sunday, several of his former teammates, along with his former head coach and university, voiced their support.)

Michael Sam may go on to do amazing things in the N.F.L. But he, and his college teammates, have already completed a historic, and vital, season. In the final minutes of the Cotton Bowl, with Missouri clinging to a three point lead, their opponent, the Oklahoma State Cowboys, were driving deep into Tigers territory. A field goal would have tied it for the Cowboys, a touchdown would probably have won it. On third down, inside the thirty, the Cowboys quarterback dropped back to pass. Sam, in a wondrous combination of power and speed, shot past his blocker on the outside. As the quarterback was flushed from the pocket, Sam sacked him, knocking the ball loose. His teammate scooped it up and returned it for a touchdown. Sam’s play helped seal the victory, and it was obvious to anyone watching just what kind of player he was: a real man’s man.

No matter what happens next, Sam has proven what we already knew: that football, or any sport, isn’t somehow in itself hostile to the breadth of human sexuality. At Outsports, in a great behind-the-scenes explanation of how Sam’s announcement was planned and timed, Cyd Zeigler writes that Sam has no plans to become an activist anytime soon: “His role in the movement toward LGBT equality in sports will be simply playing the sport as an out gay man.” He’s done it before.

Michael Sam Proves Football Is Ready for a Gay Player : The New Yorker
 
When's the big day? I went to the wedding of some friends awhile back in CA - word of advice: if you're going to be funny and do the garter toss, wear baggy pants or the garter on your calf. That was uncomfortable for everyone.


we'll be tossing jock straps.
 
I wish every gay athlete would come out all at once and be done with it. I long for a day when the only time I have to hear about gay athletes is if they're dating a model or another famous person or they get caught with their dick through a truck stop wall.

Gay men are in all walks of life and some of them are really fucking talented. Hooray. Let's talk about that.

:up:
 
The most interesting of this story to me has been when they interviewed some of the Missou coaches and they admitted that they had to completely change how they spoke to and motivated their players in order to be kind to a gay player.

There's something about that gives me hope for the world.
 
The most interesting of this story to me has been when they interviewed some of the Missou coaches and they admitted that they had to completely change how they spoke to and motivated their players in order to be kind to a gay player.

There's something about that gives me hope for the world.


so no more use of "those faggots/queers" i assume? that is a good thing.



Well done, man. Good luck. Marriage is a tricky bitch. Worth it, but wow is it harder than I expected (and Mrs. Dalton and I dated for quite awhile too).


i'm looking forward to it. we've been together for 9 years, have lived together for 5, we own a house and a dog ... so we're basically already Mitch and Cam. however, something has changed (for the better) since the engagement, even though nothing material has changed. we're still just sitting on the couch on a Monday night flipping between the Winter Olympics and the Westminster dog show.
 
He certainly cost himself some money. There will be teams who won't draft him because of this. Some because they're bigots and others because, more than likely, he'll be a distraction.

What about if a team purposely drafts him over publicity? What he gets passed on but goes exactly in the same pay rate spot as he would've anyways?

He's already a well known name. If he's even remotely successful in this league he's going to be a walking icon. He will have no problem getting endorsements, even as an average player.
 
No NFL team will draft someone for publicity. The Jets used to but realized it doesn't work.

The bottom line is he's a mid-round prospect who already had fall potential because he's a tweener. The league is moving to 3-4 and he is being left behind. It gives every bigot in every front office an easy out if asked why they passed on him.
 
Before last season, a lot of people thought that Manti T'eo would be a distraction for the Chargers. Sure, his press conference at the Combine almost overshadowed the whole event , and his draft day and first game was also a circus.

But guess what? Other than the odd joke or mention, nobody talks about that whole weird fake girlfriend thing. The circus left town after the first game, and one would hope the same will be said about Michael Sam.

After his first few games, hopefully talk will be about his performance on the field and not who he dates off it. After a while, people will see it's not a big deal and no one will care anymore.

All it takes is one.
 
Just heard an interesting interview with a player in which he said what I've been saying: players and teams are much more willing to have a gay teammate than they are with the media knowing they have a gay teammate. In other words, he doesn't care if a guy is gay, but he doesn't want it to be a distraction.

The best thing for Sam would be if a couple more guys came out before the season started. Once the lid gets blown off this thing, it'll settle back down to playing football. The majority of players, coaches, owners and fans don't care what a player does in his free time so long as he contributes on the field and doesn't distract the locker room.


The one part that a coworker and I started talking about this morning that I haven't heard anyone mention yet is what kind of HR policies will teams have to implement re: dating in the work place. Two guys breaking up midseason could be devastating for a locker room.
 
The story made the news here, and we're all eagerly awaiting the response of football loving America. :wink: According to our sensationalist press, of course.

But I'm pretty impressed he dared to do this before the big draft. Now it's up to the big teams to show their support and open mindedness.

it would indeed be amazing if this started a snowball effect, with gay players coming out in several sports disciplines. That would be quite a movement.
 
ironically, it seems that the most seemingly gay friendly sports might also be the most homophobic. it might be easier for a gay football He-Man to come out than a Johnny Weir.

this is a long article, but absolutely fascinating:


Why Is The World's Gayest Sport Stuck In The Closet

To outsiders, men’s figure skating is widely perceived as the Gayest Sport Ever, the butt of endless jokes — consider last weekend’s SNL cold open about the “U.S. Men’s Heterosexual Figure Skating Team.” The direct action group Queer Nation has recently protested figure skaters Brian Boitano and Johnny Weir for not speaking up against Russia’s anti-gay laws. One of the group’s representatives, who asked to not be named, tells me, “Everyone assumes all male skaters are gay. So what? … I have a hard time believing that figure skating is a particularly homophobic sport. I don’t understand this impulse, particularly from figure skaters, to hide their sexuality. You can’t tell me that if Jeremy Abbott came out as gay that it would affect his standing in the skating world.”

To insiders, though, it’s no surprise that skaters are reluctant to speak out on LGBT rights, let alone come out themselves. Most male skaters and officials are committed to keeping their sport in the closet, whether that means choosing “masculine” music, hinting about a girlfriend, or outright denying any connection to homosexuality. A figure skater can never quite outskate the judges’ opinion of him, and judges and institutions, it turns out, are notoriously conservative — as some would say, “family-friendly.” At the National Championships, which took place this January in Boston, a phrase I heard often was “don’t ask, don’t tell.”

It’s not that skating hasn’t had out gay athletes. There’s Rudy Galindo, a ready-made hard-knock story who grew up in a trailer, abused alcohol and drugs, and lost two coaches and a brother to AIDS. Galindo came out publicly a few weeks before the 1996 U.S. nationals; he skated last in his group (a position that made it harder for the judges to artificially deflate his scores), and to everyone’s surprise, he won, becoming the first out national champion. When he was finally inducted into the U.S. Figure Skating Hall of Fame last year after having been rejected three times, his sexuality was not mentioned during the ceremony.

A decade later, skater Johnny Weir brought exquisite technical and artistic performances on the ice, but he also brought a reality-television show, a pop song (“Dirty Love”), and an outspoken diva-worship of Lady Gaga; a word often used to describe him was “flamboyant,” despite the fact that, until 2011, he kept his sexuality private. And last month, after 1988 gold medalist Brian Boitano was named to the U.S. Olympic Delegation to Sochi, he announced that he, too, was gay. Boitano’s enough of an established legend to be on the safe side, but it seems that in general, gay skaters are just a tad too implicating of the male skaters around them to be seriously endorsed. They are dismissed in countless subtle ways. One pump-up video montage at nationals showed clip after clip of top male skaters performing one enormous jump after another, but depicted Rudy Galindo crossing himself and Johnny Weir bursting into tears.

So what exactly is male figure skating — which has the potential to be a gay haven in the world of sports — so afraid of?
 
Here's an interesting thought, albeit dangerous to state without coming off the wrong way.

It's hard to understand what really goes on in any locker room, in any sport.

In the NFL, the macho man culture speaks for itself. Being gay in the NFL might be the hardest of the four North American sports. Some might physically target you over your sexuality, in game.

In the NBA, that macho man culture isn't there. Basketball isn't the most physical of sports. And to no surprise, I imagine basketball to be one of the better of the four sports with gay athletes. There's a certain respect for players like Jason Collins, for example. Of course this isn't league-wide, that isn't expected. But, it's been seen several times that the thing to do in the wake of a gay slur in the NBA is to apologize to Jason Collins (lol).

In the MLB, I don't think that same respect culture exists. My theory behind that is that MLB culture is founded upon a lot of international players, unlike the NFL or NBA. There's no macho man culture, but I also suspect that baseball demands the least amount of education per player, on average. So, I do think that it might actually be most difficult I'm the MLB to actually change the culture.

Lastly, in the NHL, things don't stay consistent with the other three leagues. You again have the lack of education per player required. You've also got the most amount of international players. Yet, the NHL, publicly, is the strongest league in support of gay athletes. I imagine the source countries of these athletes actually work in the opposite way as opposed to the MLB.

I guess ultimately the question is... where is the source of homophobia most powerful in sports? Lack of education? Macho man culture? Basketball subculture (not to be confused with the NBA itself)? Backgrounds in nationality? The NFL might truly be the scariest sport to be gay in, but ultimately is it the hardest league to exhibit progressive change?

I honestly think that might be the MLB. I think that nationality thing is more powerful than anything else.
 
Oh there was a big fight a decade ago in basketball? You're right I'm sorry. Why don't you stick on topic and quit your trolling? You have added literally zero substance to a perfectly legitimate post open to discussion.

Perhaps you can stick to mindless arguments in a pointless hole instead of trying to speak about sports. You're out of your depths, Sparky.
 
All I'm saying is... this is a discussion about same sex marriage and even I am deviating a bit off topic talking about homophobia in sports. If you disagree with a point I made, feel free to engage in discussion and state your opinion instead of choosing to respond the way you have.
 
All thes professional sports teams have one thing in common: they are all made up of employees. The players are hired and fired at will, and they compete for a paycheck paid for by people buying merchandise and tickets for entertainment events.

Fuck whatever macho culture may exist. These are professional adults capable of acting like adults and adhering to whatever rules of conduct and behavior their employer expects of them. If someone doesn't like the thought of sharing a locker room with a gay guy, that's really his problem, and one he needs to get over much in the same way a lawyer or accountant would have to get over his issues with a gay person in his workplace. It's not on the gay person to make you comfortable. It's up to you to manage your shit.

It's just a job. There aren't lives at stake. It's not the military.
 
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