Same Sex Marriage Thread - Part III

[martha]

It is.

And they hate in the name of the One who Loves.

 

[Irvine511]

i don't think marriage inequality is apartheid, nor do i think it's Jim Crow. these are different things.

but i do think the violence LGBT people have suffered historically, and today, is absolutely on par with any group's collective suffering.

take Russia:

Ever since virulently homophobic Russian President Vladimir Putin pushed through a law effectively outlawing openly gay people, the country’s LGBTQ community has, predictably, been plagued by violence. Now a study published in Harvard University’s Health and Human Rights journal confirms what myriad horrific anecdotes suggest: Gay people in Russia are being beaten, raped, and murdered at record rates—and the government is doing little to stop it.

The issue of violence against gays in Russia is, of course, nothing new. Before the passage of the new federal measure, several regional governments passed identical laws, stripping gay citizens of legal rights and human dignity. More than one-half of Russian gays reported psychological abuse, while 16 percent experienced physical assault, and 7 percent were raped. Yet 77 percent also reported complete distrust of the police, leaving most anti-gay crimes unreported.

Putin’s law has only darkened this already bleak picture. By putting the government’s stamp of approval on rampant Russian homophobia, Putin effectively declared open season on gay people. As the Harvard study notes, violence against gays in Russia isn’t considered violence at all; rather, it’s thought of as a way for young males to prove their own heterosexuality—while simultaneously cleansing society of an aberrant, pedophilic community.

That’s the motivation behind groups like Occupy Pedophilia, which lure in gay teens through social media in order to publicly humiliate them by beating them with sex toys or forcing them to drink urine. The guerrilla group claims that its ultimate goal is to “cure” gay people of their orientation—echoing the Russian health minister’s statement that homosexuality is often a mental illness. Concerned by the violence, one Russian citizen sent 70 appeals to law enforcement agencies, asking them to investigate the attacks. Every request was refused.

Maxim Martsinkevich, the leader of Occupy Pedophilia, was recently arrested in Cuba and will soon face trial in Russia, though none of the charges against him stem from his gay-bashing. (Given that Martsinkevich was a proud neo-Nazi, his rap sheet is predictably extensive.) But his arrest will likely do little to stop the vicious zeal with which Occupy Pedophilia and likeminded groups are shaming, beating, and sexually assaulting gay Russians. In fact, much anti-gay violence comes from law enforcement officers themselves, who have brutally suppressed any public showing of gay tolerance. (That’s the law, after all.)

Putin didn’t introduce homophobia to Russia. But his crusade against the gay community has direly exacerbated the country’s already suffocating haze of anti-gay bigotry and ignorance. A strong and confident leader could have helped the country move beyond its antediluvian conceptions of sexuality and gender. Instead, the paranoid Putin has used gays as a common enemy and a scapegoat. He might have scored political points with this stunt, both in his own country and in the West. But the toll of his intolerance is currently being paid in human lives.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

The case of Russia blows my mind. Not that Russia is by any means "Western," but I can think of a handful of non-Western countries that outlaw homosexuality and are far less advanced in time, if you will, that hold a much higher standard for human rights.

 

[cobl04]

Scotland has joined the list of countries to burn in hell for all eternity.

 

[Galeongirl]

Heard that on the radio this morning, and by an overwhelming majority too! 100 something vs 18 against.

 

[Irvine511]

that's the sound of the world spinning forward ...

i am very, very curious as to what the Putin Olympics will have in store.

 

[PennyLanePHINS]

that's the sound of the world spinning forward ...

i am very, very curious as to what the Putin Olympics will have in store.

Besides discolored water and unfinished buildings?

 

[martha]

It's Russia, fer chrissakes. People didn't expect that?

 

[INDY500]

What makes you come to this conclusion? Honestly curious there.

I think you're mixing up two things though. There's a difference between sexuality and acting upon it. As you say, someone chooses to be celibate, does that mean they are not gay or straight? No, they still have a sexual preference, they just choose not to act upon it.
Sexuality isn't a choice. Acting upon your sexuality is.

I've recently changed my mind on the topic having believed orientation was largely determined at birth for the last 10 years. And I don't rule it out either, but I need some real scientific, empirical proof. None currently exists. But frankly I don't see how it matters. Whether or not one is "born gay" has no significance either way on the SSM argument for me.
The hysterical and violent reaction to the Mark Regnerus study showed just how politicized the social science on homosexuality and same-sex parenting has become. It's one-sided. Like global-warming. It's largely agenda-driven science with an outcome looking for verification.
I would never argue with someone about it however. If Irvine says he has been attracted to males his entire life and feels he was born homosexual I have no reason to doubt him.

You doubt that science can be bastardized by politics?

http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2014/02...smoke-exposure-as-deadly-as-smoking/parenents

Study: Third-Hand Smoke Exposure As Deadly As Smoking

Riverside, Calif. (CBS ATLANTA) – Exposure to surfaces and objects that have been saturated in cigarette smoke, labeled as “third-hand smoke,” may be as deadly as smoking the cigarette itself.

Idiotic but it will be used by zealots.

 

[PhilsFan]

Haha, you think people object to Regnerus because of politics?

 

[Irvine511]

The Regnerus study is ghastly social science. This really isn't a debatable point. It simply is.

I agree with INDY -- gay at birth doesn't matter, it's immaterial. What's important, and it seems he agrees, is that sexual orientation is entirely unchosen, and it can't be changed in any sort of meaningful way. So the "born gay/show me the gene" misses the point -- as INDY says, it doesn't matter

 

[Galeongirl]

I've recently changed my mind on the topic having believed orientation was largely determined at birth for the last 10 years. And I don't rule it out either, but I need some real scientific, empirical proof. None currently exists. But frankly I don't see how it matters. Whether or not one is "born gay" has no significance either way on the SSM argument for me.
The hysterical and violent reaction to the Mark Regnerus study showed just how politicized the social science on homosexuality and same-sex parenting has become. It's one-sided. Like global-warming. It's largely agenda-driven science with an outcome looking for verification.
I would never argue with someone about it however. If Irvine says he has been attracted to males his entire life and feels he was born homosexual I have no reason to doubt him.

You doubt that science can be bastardized by politics?

http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2014/02...smoke-exposure-as-deadly-as-smoking/parenents


Idiotic but it will be used by zealots.

I don't doubt that science can be influenced by politics, sure, scientist can only cover topics they get funding for... but largely this does not affect the big picture. Because the way scientist work, with peer reviews and everything. You can't just put out bogus facts that aren't backed by someone else these days, it won't work, you'd be a fraud and laughing stock of the Scientific community.

And that's a worldwide community.

I am glad you are changing your mind.

And for proof? Well, I can tell you from personal experience that I've always been this way. Sure, I started out thinking I was straight, because as a kid you don't get exposed much to the other possibilities. Had I been, I might've known sooner that I didn't have a clear preference. All I know is that all my teenage life I felt like there was something missing, and I found that when I met my first girlfriend. It changed my world, I finally started realising who I was and felt much more comfortable in my own skin.

None of this has anything to do with politics. Nothing of this has anything to do with being indoctrinated by anyone or anything. All it was about was living in an open minded country where I could discover who I was in my own pace. And where I'm not judged for the ones I love. The general consensus of my friends was that they more or less figured already. Nobody's judging, nothing has changed.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

It's one-sided. Like global-warming. It's largely agenda-driven science with an outcome looking for verification.


You doubt that science can be bastardized by politics?

http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2014/02...smoke-exposure-as-deadly-as-smoking/parenents

As someone who studies planetary atmospheres, it is kind of insulting that you'd call it an "agenda-driven science."

Global warming is not a myth. Global warming is not exaggerated. Global warming is observable through laws of physics as an energy budget on Earth. Yes, it is absolutely a political tool but the science behind it is 100% real, and much like a gay individual and the origin in time of their sexuality, a scientist has no reason to lie about their conducted research. And please do not equate a soft science to a hard science.

 

[Irvine511]

All I know is that all my teenage life I felt like there was something missing, and I found that when I met my first girlfriend. It changed my world, I finally started realising who I was and felt much more comfortable in my own skin.

this exactly.

 

[Galeongirl]

If anything, I'd say the love I've shared with women was more special than with men. There's just some kind of deeper understanding between two people of the same sex, the relationships were a lot easier I guess. More intense as well.


Did anyone catch the opening Ceremony of the olympic games? I had to laugh out loud when Germany came up. Awesome outfits!

 

[Pearl]

Did anyone see the part where they did 1,000 years of Russian history, and at the end, showed those heterosexual marriages? As if to stick to their anti-gay message.

When they showed all those baby carriages and NBC said that represented that the Russian government was looking to increase the birth rate, I couldn't help but wonder if Putin would go down the same route as Nicolae Ceaucescu, the Romanian communist dictator. He may not, but who knows?

 

[deep]

Federal government to expand recognition of same-sex marriages

Los Angeles Times | February 8, 2014 | 11:10 AM
Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. will issue a directive Monday expanding government recognition of same-sex marriages to all federal courtrooms and prisons and some federal benefits programs.

The new policy, which Holder plans to announce tonight at a gay rights dinner in New York, will apply even in states that do not recognize same-sex couples' marriages as long as they were legally married in another state.

 

[BoMac]

I hope one day soon this will no longer be newsworthy. But that day isn't here yet, and so this is a landmark event in pro North American sports.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/10/s...-is-gay-ahead-of-nfl-draft.html?smid=tw-share

 

[U2DMfan]

Beat me to it^

Quite possibly the biggest coming out in American sports - yet.

Missouri DE and NFL prospect Michael Sam announces he is gay

With respect to Martina and other ladies, it's just not perceived the same and we all know it's not. And unlike the other males (Collins, etc.) - this dude is not washed up or a marginal player and he's not playing in any league not named the mighty NFL.

And he's doing it BEFORE the NFL draft. In manliest manly man football. The biggest sport in America by miles. This guy is BEGINNING his pro career by coming out.

In other words, we're going to see whether it makes any difference or not. It won't.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

I think it was perfect timing.

 

[Irvine511]

This is actual bravery. Good luck to him.

 

[BEAL]

He also cost himself a ton of $$$.

Hope he makes it. He definitely needs a team with strong leadership.

But it just takes one. If he's successful (meaning he plays in nfl) I think you'll see the gates open and more players come out.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Not sure what you mean by this costing him money...

This could easily make him money.

 

[Irvine511]

hey, INDY, you'll be delighted to know that Memphis and i were actually refused at a venue here in DC. it's a hall associated with a Jesuit monastery, and it's gorgeous. however, they say that they are "forced to conform with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church." we're totally being discriminated against!

and guess what? we're going to look some place else! you know why? because this is totally different than a baker refusing to bake us a cake. we would be having the actual ceremony on the grounds, which would then implicated the venue in the participation of an event that actually is against their religious beliefs. and guess what? we have NO PROBLEM with that!

sure, it feels shitty to be discriminated against, and one wonders where the slippery slope ends (can they discriminate against non-virgin couples? fucking before marriage certainly goes against Jesus), but this does not actually violate non-discrimination laws in the way that refusing to bake us a goddamn pie does!

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Of course they can let non-virgins in! They can forgive people just like themselves silly.

 

[Dalton]

Not sure what you mean by this costing him money...

This could easily make him money.

He certainly cost himself some money. There will be teams who won't draft him because of this. Some because they're bigots and others because, more than likely, he'll be a distraction.

If he does become a crusader and make this about his sexuality, he won't make it in this league for very long. You see it all the time, the NFL doesn't really care if you're a good guy, but you damn well better not rock the boat. That shit isn't tolerated.

hey, INDY, you'll be delighted to know that Memphis and i were actually refused at a venue here in DC. it's a hall associated with a Jesuit monastery, and it's gorgeous. however, they say that they are "forced to conform with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church." we're totally being discriminated against!

and guess what? we're going to look some place else! you know why? because this is totally different than a baker refusing to bake us a cake. we would be having the actual ceremony on the grounds, which would then implicated the venue in the participation of an event that actually is against their religious beliefs. and guess what? we have NO PROBLEM with that!

sure, it feels shitty to be discriminated against, and one wonders where the slippery slope ends (can they discriminate against non-virgin couples? fucking before marriage certainly goes against Jesus), but this does not actually violate non-discrimination laws in the way that refusing to bake us a goddamn pie does!

I actually have no problem with this sort of discrimination. I don't want to see religious institutions to go against their beliefs. When their faith overlaps with the public, they'll have to acquiesce to public standards, but in their own place? Let them have it.

 

[Irvine511]

I actually have no problem with this sort of discrimination. I don't want to see religious institutions to go against their beliefs. When their faith overlaps with the public, they'll have to acquiesce to public standards, but in their own place? Let them have it.

it's not a church, nor would it be a religious ceremony involving any clergy, it's merely a building owned by a monastery. so, really, all we'd want to do on that tax-free land (churches are exempt, yo!) would be to have an entirely legal secular ceremony. but i suppose if they want to be in alignment with Catholic teachings, that's cool -- i get that SSM isn't.

i just hope that they do a V-card check for all the straight couples who want to get married there so they don't violate Catholic teaching and marry people who have had premarital sex or, god forbid, use birth control. and i hope no non-Catholics or Jews want to get married there either.

i'm fine getting in the back of the bus in order to accomodate someone's religious convictions -- i just hope there's consistency in application and it's not just a single group that's being singled out for discrimination via BS about "consistency" with "teachings."

 

[Irvine511]

He certainly cost himself some money. There will be teams who won't draft him because of this. Some because they're bigots and others because, more than likely, he'll be a distraction.

a distraction for his teammates, or a distraction for the older, whiter, richer owners?

his teammates at Missouri, and in fact the entire campus, seem absolutely fine with him.

 

[Dalton]

a distraction for his teammates, or a distraction for the older, whiter, richer owners?

his teammates at Missouri, and in fact the entire campus, seem absolutely fine with him.

Probably both. And you can act indignant all you want, but you know this to be true. We're moving in the right direction, but we're not there yet.

 

[Dalton]

it's not a church, nor would it be a religious ceremony involving any clergy, it's merely a building owned by a monastery. so, really, all we'd want to do on that tax-free land (churches are exempt, yo!) would be to have an entirely legal secular ceremony. but i suppose if they want to be in alignment with Catholic teachings, that's cool -- i get that SSM isn't.

i just hope that they do a V-card check for all the straight couples who want to get married there so they don't violate Catholic teaching and marry people who have had premarital sex or, god forbid, use birth control. and i hope no non-Catholics or Jews want to get married there either.

i'm fine getting in the back of the bus in order to accomodate someone's religious convictions -- i just hope there's consistency in application and it's not just a single group that's being singled out for discrimination via BS about "consistency" with "teachings."

Well you could always do what other couples in those situations do and lie. Which of you would look better in drag on your wedding day?

Congrats btw!