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Old 10-05-2013, 02:35 PM   #561
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I may get this wrong, I don't spend much time in here (anymore) reading everything in here.

But, when I read these types of things thrown into the argument, discussion it just makes the one doing it appear like they are bias against gay people.

The purpose to muddy up the discussion to defend bias towards gays.

That's the take away.
Understood. The reason I'm going down this path is in reference to Caleb's response to Pearl's appeal to "common sense" - Caleb was arguing that this is a variable that changes with cultures. A quick review of history would tend to support Caleb here.

Pearl then seemed to be saying that certain activities harm society and the individual - and I responded that conservative Christians and Jews use the same argument to oppose gay marriage. In response to that, others claimed that these are mere opinions and do not support the "facts". Which is a fair. So I simply requested these facts.
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Old 10-05-2013, 02:36 PM   #562
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Again - I'm not defending these activities, but it seems like there is an appeal to scientific "facts" and I would like to see those.
Aside from complicated consent issues, the first factual one I think of is social assistance. Because the state doens't recognize polygamous marriage, the first wife is a spouse and all subsequent wives are single women and single mothers. And typically single mothers of a herd of children. Who then become a burden on the state by collecting social assistance of varying sorts.

If we're going to talk about welfare Queens in Harlem...
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Old 10-05-2013, 02:38 PM   #563
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Because the state doens't recognize polygamous marriage, the first wife is a spouse and all subsequent wives are single women and single mothers.
In theory, this law could be changed so that the "single" mothers are no longer single, but in a state-recognized marriage.
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Old 10-05-2013, 03:11 PM   #564
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Well, that presupposes that there are no issues with consent in these marriages, which is often not the case.

But ok, let's assume you're dealing with consenting adults, not sure you've thought it through. So now you have one husband and 6 wives. How do you file joint taxes? Does he get to enjoy tax breaks by filing 6 times? Does he split his income 6 ways and files once with each wife, thereby reducing his overall income and making all 6 families eligible for federal and state aid? What about health insurance? Does he have 6 policies or are they added as dependents? Typically, you add a spouse to your own insurance at a discount, so what happens here? What about divorce? When wife #4 divorces him, how do you calculate net family property? When she sues him for spousal support and child support, does that come out of the pockets of wives 1-3, 5 & 6 and if so, why should they be held financially responsible?

I think this is a huge potential financial burden on the state. To say nothing of any social issues.
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Old 10-05-2013, 03:17 PM   #565
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I think this is a huge potential financial burden on the state.
I agree - because of the extra systems, business rules, paperwork necessary to legally support this, it certainly is practical.

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To say nothing of any social issues.
This may be more difficult to prove (assuming consensus).
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Old 10-05-2013, 04:44 PM   #566
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I meant "impractical" ^
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Old 10-05-2013, 07:58 PM   #567
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Oh man. The polygamy thing again.
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Old 10-05-2013, 11:38 PM   #568
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Oh man. The polygamy thing again.
We haven't covered gay polygamy - where do you stand on that?
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Old 10-06-2013, 05:08 AM   #569
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I'm.. not sure how that would even work out. especially with all females. Since they tend to be more jealous by nature, putting a bunch of them together is sure as heck not gonna work out.

To be honest, if people want to have more wives or husbands or whatever, live together with more than 2 people, they should do whatever the hell they want. But it's simply not doable for a working financial and legal system to acknowledge more than 1 spouse. So no, I would not see multiple marriages working out. That doesn't mean I say they cannot be together though, if it's consent of course.

Yeah, I see your parallels with gay marriage there. But I disagree that it's the same. Because a gay marriage is no trouble at all, financially and legally it's not different from a straight wedding here. You still have two humans getting married, just regardless of gender. Polygamy involves more than two humans, thus it is vastly different.
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Old 10-06-2013, 06:25 AM   #570
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On polygamy, I really couldn't give a fuck if people engage in it. There are several cultures where it's accepted.

But using it as a crutch for opposing same sex marriage is pathetic.

For me it all comes back to - who is affected when two gay people get married? No one but those two. Any assertions to the contrary are ridiculous.
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Old 10-06-2013, 09:29 AM   #571
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Oh man. The polygamy thing again.

Right? It's really dehumanizing.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:54 AM   #572
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Right? It's really dehumanizing.
Polygamy was brought up here...

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I think the difference is that those opposing incest and polygamy have actual facts to back up their assertions that it damages the person and society.
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Old 10-06-2013, 01:09 PM   #573
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Polygamy was brought up here...
I think it would best to start a separate thread then, not ruin this one.
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Old 10-06-2013, 03:42 PM   #574
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I'm not sure if I should even be offended that the two are linked so quickly... I mean, it's fucking ridiculous, so why should I take offense to a random insult like that? I get it, religious people hate me. I'm crying myself to sleep at night because they hate me for choosing to be with the one I love.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 10-06-2013, 05:34 PM   #575
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Polygamy was brought up here...
And you ran with it.
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:37 PM   #576
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Marriage equality begins Monday in New Jersey.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...ng-monday?lite
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:53 PM   #577
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:49 AM   #578
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Great news!
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:06 AM   #579
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Excellent news from the ACT - it has just become the first Australian state or territory to legalise same-sex marriage: Gay and lesbian couples celebrate the right to marry in Canberra | World news | theguardian.com

Not-so-excellent news is that the homophobes newly installed in the federal government are intending to overturn it.
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:02 AM   #580
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I counter that with this - Homosexuality leads to Hell | Bernard Gaynor
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