Same Sex Marriage Thread - Part III

[BVS]

Originally Posted by AEON

I guess I would personally rank the "next best thing" as similar to what BVS described - a model of the societal ideal, a mother and father. I would not rank a gay/lesbian couple as desirable as this.

i think you misunderstood me, or perhaps I should have been clearer, but I don't believe those models have to live under the same roof. I believe if you're a single mother or lesbian couple it's important to provide a strong male role model be it in a grandfather or uncle. The same for single fathers or gay couples.

[martha]

Originally Posted by AEON

But as of this moment - when I see a picture of a gay lesbian couple holding a baby - I can't help to think it is more about the couple than it is about the child.

Believe me, it's about the child to the couple.

[BVS]

Wow I hadn't read that far down...

[AEON]

Originally Posted by martha

Believe me, it's about the child to the couple.

Of course - I can never prove otherwise.

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by AEON

I just wanted to point out that there is still a societal ideal - and that it does deserve a little respect. That's all.

Societal ideals based on nothing but tradition? Why would that deserve respect?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

I guess I would personally rank the "next best thing" as similar to what BVS described - a model of the societal ideal, a mother and father. I would not rank a gay/lesbian couple as desirable as this.

I think that by living in a homosexual partnership, a consequence (or a benefit, depends on the couple) of that partnership is no children by natural means. Yes, there are male and female couples that can't have children, and they adopt or get artificially inseminated. Do I find this acceptable? Yes, because they can at least "model" the ideal situation. And in the Scriptures that I follow, which is my source of wisdom - even Jesus grew up in a less than ideal situation. But he had a step-dad, and that is a model for a father.

Now, the question is - how far away from the ideal should we allow? My conscience tells me that a gay or lesbian couple adopting is too far away from that ideal. I know that my mind is biased - and that I risk being called a bigot, but my conscience remains convinced of this point despite the social pressure to think otherwise. I realize that in 20 years some may look at this post and think, "wow" - people actually thought that way. Heck - in 20 years I may eventually change my mind on this, I've changed it before. But as of this moment - when I see a picture of a gay lesbian couple holding a baby - I can't help to think it is more about the couple than it is about the child.

Do you know any gay/lesbian parents?

Why would you assume their motivations are different than any other couple who has a child?

[AEON]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

Societal ideals based on nothing but tradition? Why would that deserve respect?

Well, in my case it is tradition and Scripture. We all have our sources of real or perceived wisdom - those are mine.

Of course, the interpretation of Scripture is also often debated - so I may be the biggest fool of all-time...

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Do you know any gay/lesbian parents?

I know only of one couple, they are in my close family (aunt) - it has not gone well for the children, at all.

I know I can't use one example to paint a complete picture, but I would be lying if this did not influence my thinking.

BTW - I love my aunt very much and we were very close growing up (we are fairly close in years because my father was the oldest of a large family is she was one of the last born). We are still fairly close, and I really get along with her "wife?" - but on this topic, she is pretty guarded and defensive. In the meantime, her children have had a pretty rough go at it - especially the boys.

[Diemen]

Originally Posted by AEON

I guess I would personally rank the "next best thing" as similar to what BVS described - a model of the societal ideal, a mother and father. I would not rank a gay/lesbian couple as desirable as this.

I think that by living in a homosexual partnership, a consequence (or a benefit, depends on the couple) of that partnership is no children by natural means. Yes, there are male and female couples that can't have children, and they adopt or get artificially inseminated. Do I find this acceptable? Yes, because they can at least "model" the ideal situation. And in the Scriptures that I follow, which is my source of wisdom - even Jesus grew up in a less than ideal situation. But he had a step-dad, and that is a model for a father.

Now, the question is - how far away from the ideal should we allow? My conscience tells me that a gay or lesbian couple adopting is too far away from that ideal. I know that my mind is biased - and that I risk being called a bigot, but my conscience remains convinced of this point despite the social pressure to think otherwise. I realize that in 20 years some may look at this post and think, "wow" - people actually thought that way. Heck - in 20 years I may eventually change my mind on this, I've changed it before. But as of this moment - when I see a picture of a gay lesbian couple holding a baby - I can't help to think it is more about the couple than it is about the child.

Aeon, first, let me say that I'm really glad to see you back here. I think the combination of you and nbc coming back around the same time has breathed some much needed life (and civility) into FYM.

Second, I do appreciate your honesty and candor on sensitive subjects like this. I know it's not easy to say things you know will garner strong reactions from others, but I'm glad that you're not shying away from stating your beliefs.

Lastly, I sincerely hope that in time you do come to a different conclusion than your current one. I know several gay couples hoping to adopt children, and the overwhelming impression I get is that they are all much more intentional and committed in their approach to raising children than most straight couples I know. I can't imagine anyone with an open mind spending time with any of them and coming to the conclusion that a child wouldn't be lucky to call them their parent. I hope someday you come around to that view, too.

[martha]

Originally Posted by AEON

I know only of one couple, they are in my close family (aunt) - it has not gone well for the children, at all.

I know I can't use one example to paint a complete picture, but I would be lying if this did not influence my thinking.

BTW - I love my aunt very much and we were very close growing up (we are fairly close in years because my father was the oldest of a large family is she was one of the last born). We are still fairly close, and I really get along with her "wife?" - but on this topic, she is pretty guarded and defensive. In the meantime, her children have had a pretty rough go at it - especially the boys.

After 24 years in public education, I think straight parents are pretty lucky I don't base my opinions of their parenting solely on their sexual orientation, cause y'all have fucked it up big time in many, many cases.

Judging all gay parents by one example is incredible.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Diemen

Aeon, first, let me say that I'm really glad to see you back here. I think the combination of you and nbc coming back around the same time has breathed some much needed life (and civility) into FYM.

Second, I do appreciate your honesty and candor on sensitive subjects like this. I know it's not easy to say things you know will garner strong reactions from others, but I'm glad that you're not shying away from stating your beliefs.

Lastly, I sincerely hope that in time you do come to a different conclusion than your current one. I know several gay couples hoping to adopt children, and the overwhelming impression I get is that they are all much more intentional and committed in their approach to raising children than most straight couples I know. I can't imagine anyone with an open mind spending time with any of them and coming to the conclusion that a child wouldn't be lucky to call them their parent. I hope someday you come around to that view, too.

Diemen - thank you on all points. I must admit - I'm genuinely moved by the "welcome backs" - and I'm ashamed I doubted that civility was possible here.

And it is certainly possible, that over time, my mind can change on this topic. It is an opinion, and not a conviction (I only keep but one conviction in my life - the love of Christ, everything else is open to debate).

[MrsSpringsteen]

Would all straight parents be judged by one example? There are plenty of messed up straight parents, and when they have kids it's all about them. Selfishness knows no orientation.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen

Would all straight parents be judged by one example? There are plenty of messed up straight parents, and when they have kids it's all about them. Selfishness knows no orientation.

No, of course not. Irvine asked if I knew of any gay/lesbian parents, and I mentioned the one couple I knew.

My opinion is not derived solely from that couple, but I do concede it does influence my thinking.

[MrsSpringsteen]

Originally Posted by AEON

My opinion is not derived solely from that couple, but I do concede it does influence my thinking.

I understand that, people make judgments like that in many situations and relationships. I guess our challenge and struggle is to move past that and see individuals. That applies to all of us, to all humans. By no means just to you.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

No, of course not. Irvine asked if I knew of any gay/lesbian parents, and I mentioned the one couple I knew.

My opinion is not derived solely from that couple, but I do concede it does influence my thinking.

Do you think the tough time the children are having is due to the sexual orientation of their parents?

[martha]

Another link, sorry. I saw this in the paper today.

Chad Griffin and the fight against Prop. 8 - latimes.com

The highlights:

I find it so outrageous that anyone would try to use religion as justification for discrimination. Regardless of what faith anyone grew up in, you learn the golden rule: Treat others as you wish to be treated.

A young soldier from Texas, stationed outside Little Rock, from a Southern Baptist family — when he came out of the closet, his mother did not accept it and asked that he not tell any other family members. As we were going to oral arguments, she changed her Facebook profile to that red logo.

That one may have made me a little sniffy; I may or may not have been working on my second glass of Belgian ale when I read it.

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by AEON

I guess I would personally rank the "next best thing" as similar to what BVS described - a model of the societal ideal, a mother and father. I would not rank a gay/lesbian couple as desirable as this.

I think that by living in a homosexual partnership, a consequence (or a benefit, depends on the couple) of that partnership is no children by natural means. Yes, there are male and female couples that can't have children, and they adopt or get artificially inseminated. Do I find this acceptable? Yes, because they can at least "model" the ideal situation. And in the Scriptures that I follow, which is my source of wisdom - even Jesus grew up in a less than ideal situation. But he had a step-dad, and that is a model for a father.

Now, the question is - how far away from the ideal should we allow? My conscience tells me that a gay or lesbian couple adopting is too far away from that ideal. I know that my mind is biased - and that I risk being called a bigot, but my conscience remains convinced of this point despite the social pressure to think otherwise. I realize that in 20 years some may look at this post and think, "wow" - people actually thought that way. Heck - in 20 years I may eventually change my mind on this, I've changed it before. But as of this moment - when I see a picture of a gay lesbian couple holding a baby - I can't help to think it is more about the couple than it is about the child.

This, this is exactly why we can have a civilised discussion here yet with Indy we can't. Indy makes a statement, then runs off without further discussing it or defining it with his own opinion. Yet you actually bother to show us an insight on your views! Thank you.


What would you find about single parents then? How far from your ideal is that?

And why do you think it's more about the couple than the child for gay people? Because they can't have children the natural way?

[Irvine511]

I have two very close couple friends who have children. One is a lesbian couple who used a sperm donor, the other is a gay male couple who adopted a child from an unmarried teenager.

Both couples spent at least 3 years trying to get a child. If it was all about the couple, or if it were an exercise in self esteem, I think they'd have given up long before 3 years. Further, life as a childless adult has enormous advantages -- would someone really give up a reasonably comfortable life of adult freedoms in order to prove some kind of point?

I think as a rule, as Dieman has said, because it is so challenging to create a gay family, those that do are already highly self-selecting and highly motivated and have really thought this through. Gay couples don't get pregnant by accident, or because someone's biological clock is ticking.

All that said, I'm sure some gay parents aren't good parents. We also know a lot of crappy straight parents. My guess that, like the quality of a relationship, the quality if the parenting has to do with the individuals involved rather than their sexual orientation.

However, there are likely unique challenges to children of G/L couples, especially if they live in areas where there aren't many other children like them. While that's society's fault for fostering and encouraging a hostile environment hostile to LGBT people and their families, that's also something such parents know they have to deal with. What I do know is that all my LG friends who have children are doing the best they absolutely can, and probably 75% of those children were adopted. I can't imagine we'd rather have had those kids in foster care, or for those children conceived through donation or IVF to never have existed at all.

Many mothers looking to put a child up for adoption will actively seek out gay couples precisely because they are so motivated.
And lastly, even if it hasn't worked out well for your aunt, don't those children deserve to have the added security of married parents? with.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

This, this is exactly why we can have a civilised discussion here yet with Indy we can't. Indy makes a statement, then runs off without further discussing it or defining it with his own opinion. Yet you actually bother to show us an insight on your views! Thank you.

You're welcome - but in defense of Indy, I tend to think that he will push to the edge of an opinion in order to see the limits of the logic/feeling of a particular issue. To that extent he succeeds for the Right where others here succeed for the Left (and he is surely outnumbered).

I think I was more like that 10 years ago. Now, I try to speak more from my own conscience - which is more subjective I know - because it seems more and more to me that being truly objective is downright impossible. Sometimes my views seem Left, sometimes Right - but I truly don't care about that anymore.

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

What would you find about single parents then? How far from your ideal is that?

I think that a single parent situation is certainly unfortunate and not the ideal. However, I still to think that even this is better than homosexual parents and please let me explain my reasoning - as weak as it may be. With a single parent - the model is broken, cut in half, but it's still a remnant of the actual model (and perhaps a step-parent will eventual come in). Homosexual parents are not a model at all (as I define "parents" with roles of a female mother and male father).

Now, I grew up in a broken home. I had a troubled childhood and spent time with a single mother, then an abusive step-dad, foster homes and then Catholic shelter for boys (believe it or not, I was not touched by any priests - instead I found them to be very intelligent and caring).

I had crappy foster parents that hit me over the head with Pentecostalism (took many years for the Holy Spirit to overcome my bias against Christianity because of this family) - and in general I think it's fair to say that I lacked the unconditional love children require (well, I got a lot from Grandma - Grandma's rock). That being said - had I been sent to a homosexual couple during those crazy years I'm not sure I would not have survived the confusion, the social stigma, and yes, my own homophobia (the condition which the current media labels heterosexuals that simply cannot understand homosexual tendencies). I do not wish them harm - but to this day, I must admit, I still get a sense of shock when I see two men holding hands walking around Disneyland.

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

And why do you think it's more about the couple than the child for gay people? Because they can't have children the natural way?

I will admit I can be wrong on this, since I cannot look into the hearts of people. I guess it seems to me that it's forcing pieces of puzzle together we know don't fit - and it isn't the children crying for a homosexual couple to adopt them. These little ones with broken lives, all they want is a mommy and a daddy, the model - and I think they deserve that and we should give that to them as much as possible.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Do you think the tough time the children are having is due to the sexual orientation of their parents?

I'm not sure the cause of all the problems for the children - but I'm certain that here sons hated having lesbian parents.