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Old 06-23-2013, 09:30 AM   #201
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There's a simple historical reason why the Hebrew/Torah god and the New Testament sense of divinity differ so radically: they were written as reflections of social conditions in radically different societies. One cannot expect a priest-dominated, largely agrarian society of shepherds in 1500 BCE to correlate well with the urbanized, Hellenistic society that gave rise to the New Testament gospels. If you look at these things as pieces of literature, then the whole picture falls into place quite neatly.

I will also add that - again from a completely historical standpoint - there is no such thing as modern-day "context" for biblical texts. They are reflections of wildly, wildly different societies in almost every way conceivable. In that sense debating how to interpret Leviticus for the modern day is a completely futile exercise.
Good point.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 06-23-2013, 11:25 PM   #202
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You say most Christians say Levitical law was abolished, but then why does your country in particular have such a huge problem that would imply the opposite?
One word: homophobia

No Christian denomination that I know of follows the pork, sideburns, etc laws. They all point to the Paul reference, even though Paul is referencing Leviticus.

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It would seem that a rather large percentage of Christians don't believe what you're saying at all.
I suppose you didn't say "interpret", but I don't think we should suddenly pretend like that has never been part of the argument
If you look back at some of the early gay marriage discussions in FYM and you'll find a lot of discussion on this. There's a lot of circular arguments, they will all admit that Levitical law was abolished, or some will try and gray the area and say that the law was "fulfilled" so it's still law but we just don't have to follow it to a T. But they'll all cling to the Paul reference to justify their stance.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:39 AM   #203
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So if it's Homophobia, and not written in the bible.... where does it come from? When did the humans decide that homophilia is bad? Really makes me wonder where it all went wrong.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:44 AM   #204
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You also have to wonder why there's such a strong correlation between homophobia and religiosity
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Old 06-24-2013, 12:21 PM   #205
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Oh no. After noticing that Pearl was online and checking some of her recent posts, I've stumbled on yet another thread about religion. The same old arguments that go nowhere. The same old posters arguing over the same old things. It leads us nowhere. So much ignorance and lack of understanding. I want answers, not arguments.
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Old 06-24-2013, 12:22 PM   #206
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Didn't Jesus also say something about not coming to change the laws?
You say most Christians say Levitical law was abolished, but then why does your country in particular have such a huge problem that would imply the opposite? It would seem that a rather large percentage of Christians don't believe what you're saying at all.
I suppose you didn't say "interpret", but I don't think we should suddenly pretend like that has never been part of the argument
Matthew 5:17

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
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Old 06-24-2013, 12:31 PM   #207
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Oh no. After noticing that Pearl was online and checking some of her recent posts, I've stumbled on yet another thread about religion. The same old arguments that go nowhere. The same old posters arguing over the same old things. It leads us nowhere. So much ignorance and lack of understanding. I want answers, not arguments.
I guess the only thing less productive than that is posts like yours.
At least we're trying
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Old 06-24-2013, 12:58 PM   #208
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Trying to have an argument? I'm too old for arguing.
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Old 06-24-2013, 01:08 PM   #209
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Oh no. After noticing that Pearl was online and checking some of her recent posts, I've stumbled on yet another thread about religion. The same old arguments that go nowhere. The same old posters arguing over the same old things. It leads us nowhere. So much ignorance and lack of understanding. I want answers, not arguments.


Er, am I being followed around here?

Pardon me, I just read this and thought it was odd.
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Old 06-24-2013, 01:12 PM   #210
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Trying to have an argument? I'm too old for arguing.
I don't see any "arguing". I see people having a discussion. Would you like to chime in with something intelligent? There's always the option to not open the thread
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Old 06-24-2013, 01:29 PM   #211
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I'm always interested in what Pearl has to say in these threads. I like seeing what BVS, Girls Aloud Fan and COBL for the comedy value. Whenever I read Jive's posts I start humming 'Jive Talkin'' by the Bee Gees.

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I don't see any "arguing". I see people having a discussion. Would you like to chime in with something intelligent? There's always the option to not open the thread
My mum always says never discuss politics or religion, that's how wars are started. However, I am interested in learning about religion. I used to listen to a talk radio station that discussed politics every night. As you get older, I find that it gets ever so tiring. Especially if I was up until 3am last night looking at what the Catholic church has to say about evolution even though I'm not a Catholic.

Actually I think I will add something to the discussing, as I do have 8 minutes until my favourite soap opera comes on. It wasn't until the 1960's that male homosexuality (female homosexuality technically wasn't illegal because our law makers never thought that it existed). The UK is one of the most liberal countries in the world, so why do folks think that our ancestors from thousands of years ago considered it to be ok I'm not sure. I've known atheists who dislike the idea of same sex marriage.

I remember when I was at college, students in my class telling our teacher that they dislike seeing two women holding hands. The teacher responded saying that doesn't like seeing public snogging of a man & a women. She was married with two kids, so obviously she's done a lot more than snog her husband!
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Old 06-24-2013, 01:37 PM   #212
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Don't like seeing it, and thinking that it should never happen are two different things.

I don't like to see public snogging either, being male/male, male/female or female/female. That doesn't mean I don't do it myself, behind closed doors. I just don't like to watch others make out. A peck on the cheek or a hug is fine, but to openly snog each other's faces off? No thanks. That doesn't mean I think they shouldn't do it. Just, for feck's sake, keep it private!

Disliking seeing others holding hands isn't that big of a deal to me though.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 06-24-2013, 03:46 PM   #213
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Remembering the UpStairs Lounge: The U.S.A.’s Largest LGBT Massacre Happened 40 Years Ago Today

The 24th of June in 1973 was a Sunday. For New Orleans’ gay community, it was the last day of national Pride Weekend, as well as the fourth anniversary of 1969′s Stonewall uprising. You couldn’t really have an open celebration of those events — in ’73, anti-gay slurs, discrimination, and even violence were still as common as sin — but the revelers had few concerns. They had their own gathering spots in the sweltering city, places where people tended to leave them be, including a second-floor bar on the corner of Iberville and Chartres Street called the UpStairs Lounge.

That Sunday, dozens of members of the Metropolitan Community Church (MCC), the nation’s first gay church, founded in Los Angeles in 1969, got together there for drinks and conversation. It seems to have been an amiable group. The atmosphere was welcoming enough that two gay brothers, Eddie and Jim Warren, even brought their mom, Inez, and proudly introduced her to the other patrons. Beer flowed. Laughter filled the room.



Just before 8:00p, the doorbell rang insistently. To answer it, you had to unlock a steel door that opened onto a flight of stairs leading down to the ground floor. Bartender Buddy Rasmussen, expecting a taxi driver, asked his friend Luther Boggs to let the man in. Perhaps Boggs, after he pulled the door open, had just enough time to smell the Ronsonol lighter fluid that the attacker of the UpStairs Lounge had sprayed on the steps. In the next instant, he found himself in unimaginable pain as the fireball exploded, pushing upward and into the bar.

The ensuing 15 minutes were the most horrific that any of the 65 or so customers had ever endured — full of flames, smoke, panic, breaking glass, and screams.
MCC assistant pastor George “Mitch” Mitchell escaped, but soon returned to try to rescue his boyfriend, Louis Broussard. Both died in the fire, their bodies clinging together in death, like a scene from the aftermath of Pompeii.

Metal bars on the UpStairs Lounge windows, meant to keep people from falling out, were just 14 inches apart; while some managed to squeeze through and jump, others got stuck. That’s how the MCC’s pastor, Rev. Bill Larson, died, screaming, “Oh, God, no!” as the flames charred his flesh. When police and firefighters surveyed and began clearing the scene, they left Larson fused to the window frame until the next morning.

This news photo is among the most indelible I’ve ever seen:



Thirty-two people lost their lives that Sunday 40 years ago — Luther Boggs, Inez Warren, and Warren’s sons among them.

Homophobia being what it was, several families declined to claim the bodies and one church after another refused to bury or memorialize the dead. Three victims were never identified or claimed, and were interred at the local potter’s field.

When the Rev. William Richardson, of St. George’s Episcopal Church, agreed to hold a small prayer service for the victims, about 80 people attended, but many more complained about Richardson to Iveson Noland, the Episcopalian bishop of New Orleans. Noland reportedly rebuked Richardson for his kindness, and the latter received volumes of hate mail.

The UpStairs Lounge arson was the deadliest fire in New Orleans history and the largest massacre of gay people ever in the U.S. Yet it didn’t make much of an impact news-wise. The few respectable news organizations that deigned to cover the tragedy made little of the fact that the majority of the victims had been gay, while talk-radio hosts tended to take a jocular or sneering tone: What do we bury them in? Fruit jars, sniggered one, on the air, only a day after the massacre.

Other, smaller disasters resulted in City Hall press conferences or statements of condolence from the governor, but no civil authorities publicly spoke out about the fire, other than to mumble about needed improvements to the city’s fire code.
Continuing this pattern of neglect, the New Orleans police department appeared lackluster about the investigation (the officers involved denied it). The detectives wouldn’t even acknowledge that it was an arson case, saying the cause of the fire was of “undetermined origin.” No one was ever charged with the crime, although an itinerant troublemaker with known mental problems, Rogder Dale Nunez, is said to have claimed responsibility multiple times. Nunez, a sometime visitor to the UpStairs Lounge, committed suicide in 1974.

Remembering the UpStairs Lounge: The U.S.A.’s Largest LGBT Massacre Happened 40 Years Ago Today


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Old 06-24-2013, 04:21 PM   #214
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Old 06-24-2013, 07:18 PM   #215
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Some things should be spoilered. Just sayin'
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Old 06-24-2013, 07:20 PM   #216
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You'd see pictures like that in the newspaper
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Old 06-24-2013, 08:52 PM   #217
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Never heard of that irvine, but wow. Fucked up.
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:53 PM   #218
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You'd see pictures like that in the newspaper

And I tear them out and throw them away as soon as I can.

Doesn't mean I want to see them here or anywhere.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:51 AM   #219
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I had never heard of that before either..What I miss from the article though, did they ever catch who did it?


That photo is pretty damn horrific.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:02 PM   #220
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"No one was ever charged with the crime, although an itinerant troublemaker with known mental problems, Rogder Dale Nunez, is said to have claimed responsibility multiple times. Nunez, a sometime visitor to the UpStairs Lounge, committed suicide in 1974."
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