corianderstem
Blue Crack Distributor
I think sometimes he just likes to rile everyone up.
Same Sex Marriage Thread-Part 2
- Thread starter MrsSpringsteen
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
it's an opportunity to feel sanctimonious. it's been twisted to the point where my being gay is a violation of religious freedom.
OP
OP
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Addict
I resent the Boston "values" being in quotes. We do have values here- because they're not yours Indy,they're not any less valid. Guess what, I have Christian values too. Happen to think they're pretty good.
I agree that equality is liberty, don't think you can have true liberty without it.
I agree that equality is liberty, don't think you can have true liberty without it.
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
Equality is at worst downright evil and at best counterproductive.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
It is quite interesting how the talking points have changed since this has become a national debate. For years they tried to sell us the "it will destroy the sanctity of marriage" and then they realized that they were doing that from within, so then they just argued a vague moral standing, but soon got frustrated with the fact that they had nothing but a distorted religious reason and that wouldn't stand. So now we have the "you're violating my religious freedom" argument.
It would almost be comical if you forgot about how their ignorance actually effects the rights of humans in this country.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Just meant to stir? I have a hard time any decent human being actually believes this shite.
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
Well, indeed. Created equal. Equal of opportunity - not of outcome.
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
What does "against LGBTs" mean?
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OP
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Addict
I think created equal means you don't have to earn it.
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
Yes, and it should, but I am trying to get across the difference between equality of outcome and equality of opportunity. I think that gay marriage can be easily encompassed into the quote above from the constitution. But sometimes the left seem to want to legislate to make everyone equal in every way. That's why I start objecting when the word "equality" is thrown around.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
i don't think this point has anything at all to do with what's being talked about.
we're talking about equality in the eyes of the law for same sex couples.
perhaps you meant this for the the Mitt Rmoney thread?
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
Someone brought in the issue of equality vs liberty and someone else slyly accused another poster of homophobia without furnishing any evidence whatsoever. But, hey, it's FYM, after all.
So, with respect it doesn't belong in the Mitt Romney thread, the debate was being broadened out before I arrived - I decided to broaden it out further.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
You're talking more about the Republican class warfare type of "equality". You're falling for a boogey man.
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
And I'm talking about how when we conflate equality with liberty, it's a slippery slope to forcing everyone to be equal, by hook or by crook. And there's a lot of historical examples for this, let's face it.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
that's probably why you missed not just the point but the topic entirely. trying to point score when you don't even know where the goal is often backfires. but, hey, it's FYM, after all.
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
I don't accept that.
financeguy said:
To believe that there is even the slightest semblance of equality of opportunity in the United States is completely absurd. And the fact that many conservatives believe that these is one of the thing that irks me most about conservative economic reasoning. But that's another story.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
Indeed, and I have posted many, many threads drawing attention to the accretion of political and economic power to an elitist oligarchy - what is popularly, though wrongly, called the one percenters.
financeguy
ONE love, blood, life
Everyone, I think, is confused except for the fanatics - they have the force of moral certainty on their side. And you're not an obsessed single issue fanatic Irvine, are you?
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
i have almost 25,000 posts. what do you think?
let me know when you've got the context for "equality" sorted, then we can continue.
let me know when you've got the context for "equality" sorted, then we can continue.
Moonlit_Angel
Blue Crack Addict
That's great. But, as noted, why do I not hear Huckabee or Bachmann talking about that stuff? Why do I only hear from them when they're talking about some "assault" on our country's "Christian values", why do I only hear from them when they're out making big protests against homosexuality?
I don't understand how someone can have compassion for the poor and homeless, but can't seem to extend that same compassion to gay people who are being denied their civil rights.
I don't understand why gay people getting married bothers some out there so much. I don't understand why they think it's their place to dictate someone else's love life, to tell them who they can and cannot marry. Who died and gave you the power to make such a decision?
And I'm STILL waiting to hear how any person who values the concept of personal liberty and small government interference can then turn around and restrict, or support government officials who can restrict, other people's lives like this. Please tell me how exactly one is able to reconcile those beliefs, 'cause it's a real mystery to me.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
Caleb8844 said:
So you don't agree with a practice because of your religion but respect the fact that this country cannot be governed according to a certain segment's personal beliefs? I like this concept.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
i've grown increasingly impatient with the notion that legal equality for same-sex couples is a complex or troubling or confusing issue. it isn't.
what is complex or troubling or confusing is disabusing people of the deeply held conviction that there is something inherently wrong with gay people. that their relationships must necessarily be distinguished and degraded. and in fact some of these people are, themselves, gay who have internalized homophobia to such an extent.
issues about procreation, parenting, religious freedoms, "it's not who you are but what you do" etc. these are smokescreens for the real issue which is accepting difference -- and historically despised difference -- as having equal worth.
it's not confusing at all. we make ourselves confused to live with our prejudices.
what is complex or troubling or confusing is disabusing people of the deeply held conviction that there is something inherently wrong with gay people. that their relationships must necessarily be distinguished and degraded. and in fact some of these people are, themselves, gay who have internalized homophobia to such an extent.
issues about procreation, parenting, religious freedoms, "it's not who you are but what you do" etc. these are smokescreens for the real issue which is accepting difference -- and historically despised difference -- as having equal worth.
it's not confusing at all. we make ourselves confused to live with our prejudices.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
and i can live with this.
you're allowing your religion to dictate to you those of us who are equal to you, and those of us who aren't. i assume if your religion said there shouldn't be interracial marriage, you'd feel the same way.
but you don't think that your religious convictions override other people's civil rights, and therefore you feel that in a free society we sometimes have to live with things we disagree with because it isn't society's job to endorse and coddle our every last belief.
again, i can live with this. no one has to like me. but i do have to be treated equally.
Exactly. And, as for the religion argument, I just finished ranting about "Bible-believing Christians" using Leviticus as a basis for their arguments. If I hear one more person reference that, there will be blood. It's ignorant, and it makes me look ignorant by association.
But yes, there are arguments in the Bible against homosexuality. There are arguments against lying as well. Arguments against premarital sex and divorce abound, as well.
The minute the government begins to legislate morality is the minute morality loses worth, and the people lose freedom.
I think you're no better or worse than I am. If we legislated based on Biblical principles, I'd have many restrictions on my liberty, as well. I'm glad we don't.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
I can respect this stance. It gives me hope that the next generation of conservatives will look back and see that this generation was wrong.
I hope that someday you identify yourself as a Christian, rather than a Christian-conservative, the conservative movement has done far too much damage perverting the message of Jesus.
Maybe another day we can have a discussion about "homosexuality" in the Bible and how if you study the origins a little further you understand that it has nothing to do with homosexual relationships of today.
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