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Old 03-26-2013, 11:59 AM   #901
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sounds like Kennedy wants to punt this down the road. which is fine, and small "c" conservative, and perhaps prudent. the citizens of CA will have their rights restored, and we'll continue to fight and make arguments and come out and change hearts and minds and the change we'll create will be real and enduring.

but then everyone thought the ACA was doomed. so who knows?

DOMA tomorrow.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:21 PM   #902
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seems reasonable:

Quote:
The Proposition 8 oral argument

Much will be written about the Proposition 8 oral argument. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that the Court probably will not have the five votes necessary to get to any result at all, and almost certainly will not have five votes to decide the merits of whether Proposition 8 is constitutional.

Several Justices seriously doubt whether the petitioners defending Proposition 8 have “standing” to appeal the district court ruling invalidating the measure. These likely include not only more liberal members but also the Chief Justice. If standing is lacking, the Court would vacate the Ninth Circuit’s decision.

The Justices seem divided on the constitutionality of Proposition 8 on ideological lines, four to four – i.e., all the members other than Justice Kennedy. For the more liberal members of the Court, there was no clarity on how broadly they would rule.

But Justice Kennedy seemed very unlikely to provide either side with the fifth vote needed to prevail. He was deeply concerned with the wisdom of acting now when in his view the social science of the effects of same-sex marriage is uncertain because it is so new. He also noted the doubts about the petitioners’ standing. So his suggestion was that the case should be dismissed.

If those features of the oral argument hold up – and I think they will – then the Court’s ruling will take one of two forms. First, a majority (the Chief Justice plus the liberal members of the Court) could decide that the petitioners lack standing. That would vacate the Ninth Circuit’s decision but leave in place the district court decision invalidating Proposition 8. Another case with different petitioners (perhaps a government official who did not want to administer a same-sex marriage) could come to the Supreme Court within two to three years, if the Justices were willing to hear it.

Second, the Court may dismiss the case because of an inability to reach a majority. Justice Kennedy takes that view, and Justice Sotomayor indicated that she might join him. Others on the left may agree. That ruling would leave in place the Ninth Circuit’s decision.

The upshot of either scenario is a modest step forward for gay rights advocates, but not a dramatic one. The Court would stay its hand for some time for society to develop its views further. But combined with a potentially significant ruling in the DOMA case being argued tomorrow, the Term will likely nonetheless end up as very significant to gay rights.

http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/03/th...t/#more-161733
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:32 PM   #903
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I think people who don't support it should pay more taxes, and gays should pay less until they're treated equally.

Politcians against same-sex marriage probably have no issue with gays paying taxes though, aka paying their salary.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:52 PM   #904
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I think people who don't support it should pay more taxes, and gays should pay less until they're treated equally.

Politcians against same-sex marriage probably have no issue with gays paying taxes though, aka paying their salary.
Mmmm, I don't think that will be necessary. I think seeing their world turn upside down and being defeated is enough. Of course, that won't make them change their minds and you really can't force anyone to change their minds.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:31 PM   #905
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JUSTICE SCALIA: When did it become unconstitutional to ban same-sex marriage? Was it 1791? 1868?

TED OLSON: When did it become unconstitutional to ban interracial marriage?

JUSTICE SCALIA: Don’t try to answer my question with your own question.

GFY, Scalia. seriously.
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:24 PM   #906
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He's a dick. I can't think of anyone I disagree with, or even dislike more on the bench than him.
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:28 PM   #907
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I am listening to an audio of the hearing today on my local public station, the host does a decent job of narrating, without disrupting.
Later, I will post a link to a podcast of it.
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Old 03-26-2013, 04:58 PM   #908
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Supreme Court weighs gay marriage cases | Reuters.com
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:36 PM   #909
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Originally Posted by cobl04 View Post
Why aren't the same arguments being used against single parents then? Where are the protests against single parents?
They have been actually for decades. But you could start with Dan Quayle and Murphy Brown 20 years ago and the hundreds of books on the unintended consequences of the Great Society poverty programs and no-fault divorce.

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And though I've asked many people many times no one yet has been able to answer why children need a mother and father and anything else is an abomination.
Who says they are abominations? What we argue for is a conjugal concept of marriage that recognizes the ideal of a mother and father raising a biological child in a stable union.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:54 PM   #910
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I'm sure I read the same article as you did. Where did it say that everyone is against SSM?
I didn't even read that article and I certainly never said "everyone is against SSM." What's the point of a protest if everyone is in agreement?

There are other news reports out there and in fact there was another protest just like this in Paris several months ago during my FYM hiatus or I would have commented on that protest back then. My main observation from several articles then and now is that this protest is led by a much more diverse representation of French society then the stereotypical opponents of SSM in America. Draw your own conclusions from that fact.
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:02 PM   #911
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Interesting use of the word fact...
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:06 PM   #912
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I didn't even read that article and I certainly never said "everyone is against SSM." What's the point of a protest if everyone is in agreement?
You said this on posting #890:

Interesting in that gay and straight, religious and secular, conservative and leftist, can all join together against same-sex marriage in Paris because France has rejected the ad hominem attack of "homophobe" as a way of silencing and intimidating all opposition to the legal and moral recognition of same-sex marriage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
There are other news reports out there and in fact there was another protest just like this in Paris several months ago during my FYM hiatus or I would have commented on that protest back then. My main observation from several articles then and now is that this protest is led by a much more diverse representation of French society then the stereotypical opponents of SSM in America. Draw your own conclusions from that fact.
It wouldn't hurt to post those articles, no matter how old they are.
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:08 PM   #913
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Who says they are abominations? What we argue for is a conjugal concept of marriage that recognizes the ideal of a mother and father raising a biological child in a stable union.


And some of us have a less reductivist view if humanity think that it's about the quality of the individuals in the relationship and not the mere presence of one penis and one vagina.

After all, 45 years ago, it would have been "one father and one mother of the same race in a stable union" because think of those poor confused biracial children.

The anti-adoption ethos that come out of the anti-gay side is breathtaking, and as Kennedy pointed out today, what about the 40,000 children in California alone who have SS parents? Are they to be punished because their parents don't fit your ideal?
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:23 PM   #914
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Guys, get off Indy's back. He just thinks his ideals are more important than another person's life. Is that so bad?

He believes he's more American than you are. Deal with it. That's your problem
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:49 PM   #915
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you can listen for yourself

if you go to this page, there is a link to a recording of the oral arguments

Supreme Court oral arguments and analysis of CA's Prop 8 hearing | AirTalk | 89.3 KPCC
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:02 PM   #916
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Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
It wouldn't hurt to post those articles, no matter how old they are.
English Manif: : Interview with Xavier Bongibault, head of gay group opposed to gay marriage

ttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/11/frigide-barjot-france-comedian-gay-marriage_n_2455573.html

Quote:
PARIS, Jan 11 (Reuters) - When the opponents of gay-marriage take to the streets in Paris on Sunday, their protest will be led neither by politicians nor priests, but by a sassy comedian in a pink T-shirt who goes by the stage name Frigide Barjot. With her on the march, expected to be one of the capital's biggest demonstrations in years, will be a young gay man who campaigns against homosexual marriage and an an older activist from the right-to-life movement.
Here's just two. Now does that even remotely sound like the American opposition to SSM depicted as mostly dying, old, white, Republican men bitterly clinging to their Bibles?
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:25 PM   #917
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You should read the anti-equality websites. They do everything they can to trot out people who aren't old. But it's a challenge. The NYT did an article recently on 20-somethings who are anti-gay, and it's brilliant reading:



http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/us...pagewanted=all


Really, a 29-year old executive director? Must be quite an established organization.

If you look at the polls, indeed, it is the Bitters who remain opposed. But not by much, and not for long.
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:51 PM   #918
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post

Who says they are abominations? What we argue for is a conjugal concept of marriage that recognizes the ideal of a mother and father raising a biological child in a stable union.
That's really interesting from somebody who is pro-life.

Fuck those adopted, unideal, non-biological children.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:08 PM   #919
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Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post

English Manif: : Interview with Xavier Bongibault, head of gay group opposed to gay marriage

ttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/11/frigide-barjot-france-comedian-gay-marriage_n_2455573.html

Here's just two. Now does that even remotely sound like the American opposition to SSM depicted as mostly dying, old, white, Republican men bitterly clinging to their Bibles?
Two people! There's a reason to ban gay marriage for millions.
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:25 PM   #920
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Two people! There's a reason to ban gay marriage for millions.

Yep. A coupla gays are against it, so no marriage for you!

It makes perfect sense. Sheesh.
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