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Old 03-17-2013, 04:40 AM   #861
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u dont comunism its when bad people kill u and take all ur mony n ur not aloud 2 breath
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Old 03-17-2013, 06:18 AM   #862
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I've always thought that Labor were centre-left in the same way that the Democrats were centre-left, ie. they aren't.
What Kieran said. One of the reasons why the ALP has struggled so much to adapt to the "new" progressive/left wing landscape is because its left wing credentials were based largely around its attitude towards the economy. Keep in mind this party had communists, social democrats, and other Marxists in very high profile positions right up until at least the seventies. However, its emphasis on the working class has lost a lot of its resonance now that most Australians are either middle class or perceive themselves to be; practically nobody self-identifies nowadays as "working class". Furthermore, many of the unions that have been essentially central to its existence have been socially conservative and racist. The ALP was quite happy to uphold the White Australia Policy, in part to protect the jobs of white Australian workers. The fact that progressive politics has now shifted to a greater emphasis on social issues has really fucked them around; the greater environmental emphasis has been somewhat easier to manage, though not smooth.

On an economic scale, I would say until the Hawke years, the ALP were left. Hawke/Keating, they drifted a bit to the centre in line with the general global trend. Post-Howard, Rudd and Gillard have had to deal with the reality that the majority of Australia is wedded to Howard-era middle class welfare (and Howard-era xenophobic dog whistling) and they have had to maintain that despite contradictions with their own rhetoric and ideology. They're centre-left only because the centre has shifted more to the right in the wake of Howard.

New Zealand Labour has coped a bit better because of two factors: they were able to absorb the new social concerns of progressive politics with a greater degree of ease, and their members who leaned right economically departed in the late eighties to create a new small-l liberal party, ACT, that now sits a bit to the right of the Nationals. The ALP never quite got the luxury of discarding its equivalents to New Zealand's Roger Douglas, Richard Prebble, etc. (Though the comparison is imperfect, since ACT is true to its liberal principles and supports most socially progressive causes, while the right wing of the ALP - and its effectively dead DLP offshoot - are socially conservative.)
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Old 03-17-2013, 07:00 AM   #863
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Of course in relation to all that, I'd be more than a little inclined to describe the self image of the overwhelming majority of Australians as 'middle class' to be a bit of an American trojan horse. Take away all those little subsidies and benefits and see how middle class you feel, eh?

If working class means pulling levers in a factory, then no, not many of us are that now.
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Old 03-18-2013, 05:44 AM   #864
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Unfortunately I'm not confident. Gay marriage may be a big issue, but it's not the biggest issue in Australian politics right now. Elections at the moment are largely decided in bogan parts of western Sydney and Queensland. They hate taxes and they've been convinced that the current government's price on carbon is a tax when it's no more a tax than parking fines are a tax on driving. They want more middle class welfare ("zomg we've pulled little Jimmy out of the state-run school and put him in a private school and now there are fees?!?!? We want the government to pay for that too!!!!1!!11"). They're xenophobic, so the rather benign matter of asylum seekers has been whipped up into a racist fervour that poisons any and all political discourse that comes into contact with it. And these are also the places where you're most likely to find homophobic types.

The current state of play with the major parties is:
Labour (centre-left): Currently in power, has adopted gay marriage as party policy but members of parliament are permitted a conscience vote rather than having to follow party lines. Some right-wing unions are quite powerful within Labour and their leadership is socially conservative, hence the failure for more than half the party's members to vote for gay marriage. Labour's historically been based around the working class and had an emphasis on class conflict; it is struggling to adjust to modern progressive politics and the reality that almost everybody in Australia now sees themselves as middle class.
Liberal (centre-right): Will almost certainly win the September election. Party policy at the moment opposes gay marriage. Due to the nature of Aussie politics, the Libs will almost certainly be in power for the next six years if they win, and probably nine. However, some prominent members do support gay marriage and the party might revise its policy to permit members a conscience vote in the next few years. The combined vote of socially liberal Liberal and Labour politicians alongside the Greens might be enough to get gay marriage over the line, but I don't see this scenario happening until at least 2016-17.
Nationals (centre-right agrarian): Minor partner of the Liberals in coalition. Represent rural constituencies that are socially conservative. Definitely won't support gay marriage.
Greens (left): The only major party at the moment that is actually committed to supporting gay marriage.

It's depressing! Right now the best hope is that individual states will pass gay marriage laws and then seeing how the High Court interprets the constitution (since it's debatable whether states can legislate for gay marriage or not). It's likely that a gay marriage bill will pass in at least one state this year.
Those bogans sound like fun people. At least they're trying to get their kids educated, I guess...


Woah, so if one party wins they are in charge for six to nine years? THat's a helluvalong time!
But perhaps a sensitive approach to the topic would help. I mean, if the party's openly pro-gay, the bogan's aren't voting on them and they won't win the election. By revising it after, that could work. May take a couple years but they might get there after all.


Do your states work the same as The US? They can figure out their own laws and stuff like that?
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:45 AM   #865
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Of course in relation to all that, I'd be more than a little inclined to describe the self image of the overwhelming majority of Australians as 'middle class' to be a bit of an American trojan horse. Take away all those little subsidies and benefits and see how middle class you feel, eh?

If working class means pulling levers in a factory, then no, not many of us are that now.
Agreed. But as long as self-perception is of membership to the middle class, traditional rhetoric about the working class is not going to have much resonance and the ALP desperately needs to adapt.

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Woah, so if one party wins they are in charge for six to nine years? THat's a helluvalong time!
Well, basically, incumbent governments in Australian elections don't tend to lose often. Since the end of World War II, we've had just one single-term government, and that was in extraordinary circumstances. You can basically guarantee that when a party enters power, they will win their first and probably their second election as incumbent. Since elections are every three years, that gives the six to nine year figure (and the Liberal Party once held on 1949-72!).

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Do your states work the same as The US? They can figure out their own laws and stuff like that?
Similar, but our federal government exercises more control over the states.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:22 AM   #866
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Lol, here most parties don't actually end up serving full term. As it's usually a coalition of a few smaller parties(yeah, we have a fuckload of them here, ridiculous!) they will disagree on points, and to get laws through they have to find a majority. If they can't, it won't pass, and eventually the disagreements break up the parliament and they crash.

If it wasn't for the bloody control of the country, it'd actually be pretty funny. But yeah, it's sad.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:58 AM   #867
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http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/th...post-abc-poll/



What's really significant: SSM is supported by 81% (!!!) of 18-29 year olds.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:45 AM   #868
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I may be almost 31 years old, but I could see why that age group overwhelmingly supports SSM. We came of age when gay rights gained momentum and sympathy for LGBT increased because of Matthew Shepard and the movie Boys Don't Cry. Unlike previous generations, we were more likely to know someone who was gay at a younger age. The LGBT community wasn't that foreign to us, so it's no wonder why we're more supportive.
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:58 AM   #869
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What's really sad is that I'm no longer in that age bracket.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:23 AM   #870
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:30 AM   #871
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Thanks.

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Old 03-19-2013, 07:56 PM   #872
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awesome, and the right thing, but isn't it strange that Republicans only seem to find compassion when their self-interest is at stake?

I've been saying since I was too young to know any better that this is a hallmark of being Republican.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:57 PM   #873
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Washington Post



What's really significant: SSM is supported by 81% (!!!) of 18-29 year olds.
Just one more thing to like about kids.
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:09 AM   #874
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Christ. Don't scroll down the link if you're even slightly faint of heart.

Quote:
‘A rebel announced that Mohamed Baashi, along with a man who had been accused of murder, had both confessed to their crimes.’

The man accused of murder was allegedly shot to death.

‘This is the day of justice,’ the group quote the judge as saying. ‘We investigated, and this man did what Muslims shouldn’t do.

‘As a result, he will be stoned to death and the one that killed someone will be shot because homosexuality is more punishable in Islam.’
Gay teen ‘stoned to death’ in Somalia | Gay Star News
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:43 AM   #875
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Fucking savages
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:31 AM   #876
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Heinous as that was, I'm not surprised that radical Muslims would be so barbaric toward gays. If they treat their women like second class citizens and stone them over the slightest rumor that their wife, sister or daughter is not a virgin, why should we be expect that gay people would be treated any better? It will take eons for Muslim extremists to even consider gay rights, or perhaps never. They're just not ignorant; I think they're just batshit insane.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:06 AM   #877
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you know how we've talked about how conservatives appear to have a compassion/empathy deficit?

Quote:
Saxby Chambliss: 'I'm Not Gay. So I'm Not Going To Marry One.'
The Huffington Post | By Luke Johnson
Posted: 03/21/2013 9:26 am EDT | Updated: 03/21/2013 10:20 am EDT


Retiring Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.) said that he won't be following Sen. Rob Portman's (R-Ohio) recent support for gay marriage.

"I’m not gay. So I’m not going to marry one," he told Politico in an article published Thursday.

Chambliss' curt non-sequitur may illustrate how long it will take for other Republican senators to back gay marriage. Portman, the first GOP senator to do so, said his support was a result of his son's coming out; he wanted his son to have the same right to marry as straight people have, he said. Portman's decision, which came three days before former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's announcement that she also supported gay marriage, was unexpected given his conservatism and past opposition to it.

Portman said earlier this week that he didn't think his GOP colleagues were rethinking the issue. However, he said they supported him. "I thanked them, because I've had a number of people come up and express personal support for me and my family. And that's what I talked about. I circulated the op-ed so everybody saw it in my words," he said.

When asked by HuffPost whether he wished it didn't have to require a personal experience to change his views, he responded, "Well, it did," and adding that he was more focused on economic issues.

then again, this is a man who trashed a man who lost 3 limbs in Vietnam in order to win office, when he himself avoided Vietnam via medical deferments, so there's that.
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:02 PM   #878
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Heinous as that was, I'm not surprised that radical Muslims would be so barbaric toward gays. If they treat their women like second class citizens and stone them over the slightest rumor that their wife, sister or daughter is not a virgin, why should we be expect that gay people would be treated any better? It will take eons for Muslim extremists to even consider gay rights, or perhaps never. They're just not ignorant; I think they're just batshit insane.
Yeah, I don't think these extremists are ever accepting it. Same with the orthodox christians or jews. But I don't think that'll be an issue in the future. Because orthodox relious peple are a dying breed. People aren't going to church every day, they don't listen to what the father/imam has to say as much anymore, people are more and more starting to think for themselves!

I think that survey is an example of that. Most young people these days are much more free of mind, they don't share the extreme views their grandparents or sometimes even parents have. They don't follow a book literally anymore. Sure, religion will always exist, and it's probably good that it is. But I hope that one day the people who take a book for the absolute truth, and hate and kill others for not following their book, will cease to exist.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:10 PM   #879
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Yeah, I don't think these extremists are ever accepting it. Same with the orthodox christians or jews. But I don't think that'll be an issue in the future. Because orthodox relious peple are a dying breed. People aren't going to church every day, they don't listen to what the father/imam has to say as much anymore, people are more and more starting to think for themselves!

I think that survey is an example of that. Most young people these days are much more free of mind, they don't share the extreme views their grandparents or sometimes even parents have. They don't follow a book literally anymore. Sure, religion will always exist, and it's probably good that it is. But I hope that one day the people who take a book for the absolute truth, and hate and kill others for not following their book, will cease to exist.
I agree. I think the world, or at least the developed world, is heading towards less religion and more spirituality which I think is what God had in mind all along.

Psst...I don't know how it is in Holland, but the term "orthodox" usually refers to Eastern Christians, like the Greeks and Russians. I'm just pointing that out because I was confused with your post at first
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Old 03-21-2013, 03:13 PM   #880
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I think there are about 7 billion people on the planet
lots of different belief systems, cultures. I am not going to sit here in sunny California and assume that from my vantage point and personal experiences I can extrapolate what will happen globally. But from reading, and seeking out multiple sources of information, I can say that in at least 1/2 the the places on the globe things are not getting better anytime soon. Belief systems are powerful things and there are new adherents every day.
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