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Old 08-18-2012, 04:29 PM   #321
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There has been plenty of "bullying" here in FYM in terms of sexist comments, and personally directed comments that I have felt were out of line. I dealt with it, if it bothered me that much I would have left a long time ago.

I've also had my Christian beliefs openly questioned by at least one person on the "other side" as not being really Christian , and by some people who are supposedly in my "group think" here. There are stereotypes held by both sides. Like I've said here before honestly I don't care about any of those opinions, I know myself and my beliefs and that's all that matters.

If anyone here leaves because they feel bullied about their opinions well it's their decision to leave.
There are mods here too. But to act like it only happens from one side is just not true.

All you need to do is visit the rest of the forum to see "group think" vs the "outsiders". It's all over the place, as is stuff you could call bullying. Not saying that makes it right but just that it exists.
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Old 08-18-2012, 07:06 PM   #322
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Wow, this thread's moved fast over the last 24 hours!

P.S. Sean, PFan--you guys rock. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
But at the same time, I was damn conflicted. I was conflicted because of people who look down their self-righteous nose and snivel at everyone who doesn't agree with them. I was conflicted because of people who can't fathom anyone who thinks differently and who might want to live out their Constitutionally-protected right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion without being harassed or berated or mocked or stalked or derided. I was conflicted because I can't label who thinks differently from me a "hater."
I understand declining to publically participate, even informally, in a cause or movement when you feel the path many of its supporters are taking dishonors the cause itself. I've done that, not on this issue but on others. I have a harder time, though, imagining myself feeling conflicted about how to vote for that reason--after all, it's my one sure chance to speak as myself alone. And if/when I do decide, in such circumstances, to venture into publically voicing some concerns with how the cause is being pursued, I signal from the outset what my fundamental position is, because I figure it's unreasonable otherwise to expect to be taken as I'd wish to be taken--as someone whose concern for where the movement is headed comes from belief in its aims, rather than as someone likely looking for reasons to discredit it. But I do understand feeling deeply alienated by the approaches of a movement whose aims you fundamentally believe in, particularly when you feel some strong social and cultural affinities with the opposition's rank and file.

I've always valued and admired your thoughtfulness and grace under fire around here.
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When you are black, or Jewish, or Asian ... chances are, so is your family.

When you are gay, usually, you are on your own.
I was just thinking yesterday about the irony that most of my gay friends (most of them 35ish-to-55ish and in longterm relationships, some raising children) in fact grew up in stable two-parent families, with mothers and fathers who although imperfect--usually most of all with their gay child, sadly--loved each other and their children and clearly got most of the fundamentals of parenthood right, as evinced by having raised caring, responsible, upstanding people with so much to offer their communities. Which is to say, these friends were raised with precisely the kind of sound basic blueprint for how to love and support a spouse and children that's supposedly at stake here. And it's not like they were raised from infancy being told, "Oh, you're gay, so of course you shouldn't expect to ever have this. We'll send you to Future Gay Citizens Of America Camp so you can learn about the kinds of households it's morally appropriate for you to be part of." Why shouldn't they look forward to sharing with someone else what their parents shared? Why shouldn't they imagine themselves one day sharing with their own child the love and guidance their parents shared with them? Why shouldn't they see themselves going with their families to church picnics or block parties or the beach and socializing with other parents while the kids play, just like their families did?

You're right that in some sense most gay children will always be on their own, in that their relationships and families won't look or function precisely like those of their parents or siblings (one more reason why as I said earlier, I think every parent should aim to provide a diverse network of potential mentor figures for their kids). But I look forward to a time when that distinction won't be nearly as cruelly hard-edged as it still largely is now.
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Old 08-18-2012, 08:14 PM   #323
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Let me chime in and say that I also feel the hostility towards nathan1977 is unwarranted.
I agree. I have no issues with Nathan, and he seems genuinely engaged into how others feel most of the time. The fact that he is conflicted on the issue says to me that he has put thought into it.

I come from a religious background, so I always understand how difficult it can be to reconcile that with the ever-changing landscape of views on these subjects. That's why I enjoy the debate so much. I feel like getting people to talk out their thoughts allows them to have a better perspective on how they came to believe certain things, how those beliefs are being perceived, and why some people would question certain logical conclusions.
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Old 08-18-2012, 08:20 PM   #324
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The liberals on this forum are so aggressively insulting and dismissive against anyone that doesn't share their ideological viewpoint that I'm almost tempted to re-examine my pro-gay marriage stance.
I'm sorry that you find some people who disagree with you to be too aggressive and patronizing, and I wish that they were not just as much as you do. But to threaten changing sides on an issue that means a great deal to a lot of people because you think some people are assholes in how they deal with others is sort of petty.

I mean, this is the Internet. We are anonymous posters on a forum. It's not going to be as civil as people sitting on a circle in folding chairs having a debate, you know? I'm not apologizing for it at all. But can you be surprised that people are less polite when they're arguing much more about ideas than they are about personal issues? That's sort of what makes this different. Because we are using aliases and communicating solely through text, it's different.

And part of the issue is that the conservatives on this forum are outnumbered. At times I'm sure it seems that it's piling on. That can't help the perception of what is occurring.

But again, throwing your issues up into the air where they can be blown onto either side of the fence by something as ridiculous as the politeness of a political forum on a U2 message board is kind of crazy, don't you think?
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Old 08-18-2012, 10:40 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
I'm sorry that you find some people who disagree with you to be too aggressive and patronizing, and I wish that they were not just as much as you do. But to threaten changing sides on an issue that means a great deal to a lot of people because you think some people are assholes in how they deal with others is sort of petty.

I mean, this is the Internet. We are anonymous posters on a forum. It's not going to be as civil as people sitting on a circle in folding chairs having a debate, you know? I'm not apologizing for it at all. But can you be surprised that people are less polite when they're arguing much more about ideas than they are about personal issues? That's sort of what makes this different. Because we are using aliases and communicating solely through text, it's different.

And part of the issue is that the conservatives on this forum are outnumbered. At times I'm sure it seems that it's piling on. That can't help the perception of what is occurring.

But again, throwing your issues up into the air where they can be blown onto either side of the fence by something as ridiculous as the politeness of a political forum on a U2 message board is kind of crazy, don't you think?
I specifically said I didn't change my mind. What I did say was that I find the attitudes and tactics of the US gay lobby and their allies increasingly unattractive, offputting and counterproductive - and I stand by that. The attention devoted to one issue that effects a relatively small section of society in one country on this forum is really disproportionate, particularly seeing as 80% of the regular posters agree with SSM - and those that didn't haven't changed their views - so really there's nothing to debate, nothing much to talk about - except for the shrieks of faux-outrage whenever Indy500 posts in the thread.
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Old 08-18-2012, 10:41 PM   #326
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It blows my mind as well.
Aren't you even slightly embarassed by how your prejudices regarding another poster were shown up?

Genuine question.
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Old 08-19-2012, 12:01 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
The attention devoted to one issue that effects a relatively small section of society in one country on this forum is really disproportionate, particularly seeing as 80% of the regular posters agree with SSM - and those that didn't haven't changed their views - so really there's nothing to debate, nothing much to talk about
Like it or not, it's still a big issue in this country. We have one party that constantly tries to use it as a scapegoat for all the moral failings of our nation and tries to bring up talk of trying to bring us back to "good Christian family values" every single election cycle to rile up its base. Fortunately, I think more and more people are starting to tune out such ludicrous beliefs, especially younger generations, but we still have people trying to make policy to stop gay rights from advancing any further. And then we have another party who has more people showing support, but whom don't do much about their support. The people directly affected may not be a majority of the population, but that doesn't make what they're going through suck any less.

So, yeah, it's going to be something we'll talk about as a result. And there's still plenty to debate and discuss-the suicides, the support politicians have given "gay therapy" groups, how a policy/law will affect people, etc. Just because most of us here agree it should be legal doesn't mean that that in and of itself is enough.

And you never know. Sometimes people can change their minds. I remember a poster a few years back coming back here and apologizing for the anti-gay attitudes they used to have, noting that it was because of the discussion here that they thought about their viewpoint and changed their mind.

I don't expect to force people to change their minds-ultimately that is up to them to decide such a thing. But I'm certainly going to lay my argument out nonetheless. If you agree, fantastic. If you don't, well, then you don't-but if you at least take it into consideration, I consider that worth the effort.

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except for the shrieks of faux-outrage whenever Indy500 posts in the thread.
Seem pretty genuine to me, but hey.
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Old 08-19-2012, 12:13 AM   #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy

I specifically said I didn't change my mind. What I did say was that I find the attitudes and tactics of the US gay lobby and their allies increasingly unattractive, offputting and counterproductive - and I stand by that. The attention devoted to one issue that effects a relatively small section of society in one country on this forum is really disproportionate, particularly seeing as 80% of the regular posters agree with SSM - and those that didn't haven't changed their views - so really there's nothing to debate, nothing much to talk about - except for the shrieks of faux-outrage whenever Indy500 posts in the thread.


Certain issues are hot, and they are going to occupy a great deal of space.

I'd guess there are more gay people reading this forum than there are people who have had abortions. Yet, god help us wen someone starts an abortion thread.

I will not apologize for advocating for my issues, nor do I need or want your approval, and really, if your support is based upon how pleasant you deem someone's desire for equal treatment to be, then I'm not sure how much I want that support. I think people regularly forget how much this really is about real lives, and these are not privileges to be granted by a majority that may or may not deem me worthy of the very rights they were born to exercise.

As an exercise, read through these threads only replace the word "gay" with "Irish."
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Old 08-19-2012, 12:25 AM   #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland
Why shouldn't they look forward to sharing with someone else what their parents shared? Why shouldn't they imagine themselves one day sharing with their own child the love and guidance their parents shared with them? Why shouldn't they see themselves going with their families to church picnics or block parties or the beach and socializing with other parents while the kids play, just like their families did?
why?

Because I can't. Because I can't do any of these thi gs without it being inherently political. If I get married, it's political. If I have kids, it's political. I've heard, in here no less, people speak passionately about their god-given rights to denounce me, or at least cherish their right to denounce me should their moral conscience move them to do so for doing the very things you just outlined. And then, the flip side, they bestow upon me the largess of their struggles, after prayer and study, they've decided that, well, it is ok that you participate, and look at how expansive my worldview and generosity of spirit. Your worth, homosexual, remains up for me to decide, AND I AM SO PROUD OF MYSELF FOR BEING TOTALLY COMFORTABLE AROUND YOU.

I'm always contested. My social worth isn't assumed, it's granted.

Yet I know that it's not. And I know I don't need anything from anyone. And yet I can't escape any of this.
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Old 08-19-2012, 01:18 AM   #330
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I just feel like I want to give you a hug right now, Irvine .
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Old 08-19-2012, 01:55 AM   #331
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At the end of the day, fguy, homosexuals in the US are being told that they aren't as much of a person as straight people are. And you can whinge about it being a topic that takes up a lot of discussion, but while an entire part of society in the world's third most populous country are being blatantly discriminated against (when all it would take to end the debate is for conservatives to get off their high horse) then it deserves every second of attention that it gets and more.

To think that if gay marriage were legalised across the world right this second, it wouldn't affect a single person who is against it, but they still hold this moral high ground, is nothing short of abominable.
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Old 08-19-2012, 08:33 AM   #332
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It's not just the US. The US is really pretty progressive on the whole. What sucks in the US is how political it's become and how it's yet another issue one uses to define one's place in the "culture wars" that have been going on and on ans on since the 1960s.

Just look at Russia and many Eastern European states.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:28 AM   #333
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I know it's not just the US.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:15 AM   #334
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I wonder what kind of reaction there would be to a modern, mainstream conservative candidate who supported all the classic republican policies (small gov., top-down economics, pro-life, etc.) but was openly supportive of legalizing gay marriage.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:09 AM   #335
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I wonder what kind of reaction there would be to a modern, mainstream conservative candidate who supported all the classic republican policies (small gov., top-down economics, pro-life, etc.) but was openly supportive of legalizing gay marriage.
He would be ostracized from his own party.
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Old 08-19-2012, 12:28 PM   #336
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I think they're out there on the smaller-scale political level. I heard a republican candidate for .... uh ... something in Washington State (I can't recall if he was running for governor or something lower on the scale) said he was for it.

The reasoning was that he didn't think it was the government's place to determine who could and couldn't get married.

My very conservative mother (a former OB nurse) declares herself pro-choice for that same reason: not the government's place to decide.

But yeah, you wouldn't see either of those in a republican presidential candidate these days.
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:12 PM   #337
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I wonder what kind of reaction there would be to a modern, mainstream conservative candidate who supported all the classic republican policies (small gov., top-down economics, pro-life, etc.) but was openly supportive of legalizing gay marriage.
I know Bomac has said he'd be more inclined to vote conservative if they left social issues such as gay marriage/women's health alone.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:08 PM   #338
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Yeah, I've heard quite a few people say similar things.

Quote:
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I think they're out there on the smaller-scale political level. I heard a republican candidate for .... uh ... something in Washington State (I can't recall if he was running for governor or something lower on the scale) said he was for it.

The reasoning was that he didn't think it was the government's place to determine who could and couldn't get married.

My very conservative mother (a former OB nurse) declares herself pro-choice for that same reason: not the government's place to decide.

But yeah, you wouldn't see either of those in a republican presidential candidate these days.
Nope. 'Cause heaven forbid someone be like that candidate or your mother and show actual consistency in their positions.

Irvine is right, too-we have a ways to go on this issue, yes, but compared to some other areas, we are definitely farther ahead. And for that, I am happy.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:20 PM   #339
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Kind of unrelated, but I keep reading this complaint that pro-SSM "campaigners" are impinging on "religious freedom".

I know I'm not. I'm an atheist. But I just wanted to share this little story.

When my grandmother was dying, I asked her how she was feeling about it all, was she scared, that sort of thing. Because I'm petrified of death. And she turned and said to me, "no, because I get to be with Pa again" (in heaven). And it made me cry, I was so touched. It was amazing. I was so comforted that she was happy.

I'll never forget it... it was one of the best things I've ever heard and I would never, ever try to stamp that out or whatever. So don't tell me I'm impinging on "religious freedom". And stop discriminating against members of society.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:36 PM   #340
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Yeah, I too would like someone to explain to me how letting a gay couple get married=you can't be a Christian and go to church anymore or whatever. That's definitely one of the stranger arguments out there. To say nothing of the fact that there are plenty of gay people who are religious as well, so...yeah. Suggesting you shouldn't force your religious views on everyone is NOT the same thing as saying you can't religious views to begin with, period, and I really wish more people would understand the difference.

That's a lovely story, cobl.
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