Same Sex Marriage Thread-Part 2 - Page 11 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-13-2012, 07:08 PM   #201
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,715
Local Time: 02:28 AM
I saw a crime story on TV once about a man who'd killed his wife. Apparently he'd had a history of dressing up like a woman and acting feminine in nature.

It was traced back to his childhood, where his father beat him and his brother (brothers? I can't remember how many he had), but not his sister. He took that to mean that if he dressed more like a girl and acted like a girl that he might escape the abuse somehow.

He grew up in a heterosexual parent household.

(I found it strange, though, that the story focused so much on his cross-dressing and made a big thing out of it. He'd also had an incident where he tried to stab his wife in the head and had had other violent outbursts over the years. I found that stuff much more disconcerting than the fact he dressed up like a girl. I think the abuse from his childhood had much more of an effect on his behavior than the cross-dressing did. But the show and trial made a big thing out of the latter. Of course.)
__________________

Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 08-13-2012, 07:21 PM   #202
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 03:28 AM
Quote:
Inside, however, I was confused. When your home life is so drastically different from everyone around you, in a fundamental way striking at basic physical relations, you grow up weird.
I really took issue with this because there are many, many of us whose home lives were drastically different from everyone around you - any immigrant kid who grows up in a community where nobody is like them, where nobody speaks their language or understands their customs or their "weird/smelly" food, etc. knows of what I speak. I've had friends who were the only non-white people in the county, nevermind their town (and some as exotic as Hindu on top of it). And you know what, we didn't grow up "weird".

I actually feel badly for him - think he has a lot of self-esteem issues.
__________________

anitram is offline  
Old 08-13-2012, 07:42 PM   #203
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:28 AM
I know kids who haven't had a household drastically different who grow up "weird".
martha is offline  
Old 08-13-2012, 07:50 PM   #204
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,715
Local Time: 02:28 AM
Yeah, "weird" can mean a variety of things. And sometimes it's associated with bad stuff, but sometimes it's also a good thing. I fully believe everyone can point to some aspect of themselves that others would find "weird". Sticking out from others in some way isn't the issue in and of itself. It's how the person deals with being different that matters.

And besides that, a person may think they're all alone in their weirdness sometimes, but there's probably more people like them out there than they realize. It's just a matter of how often the things that set them apart get talked about in public, really, or how easily they can find other like-minded people in their area or elsewhere.
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 08-13-2012, 08:38 PM   #205
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 03:28 AM
Unfortunately, the Black and Latino communities are known for their homophobia, so there certainly was no support for Robert almost anywhere.

I didn't like how he said he "chose" to marry a woman and be monogamous. He makes it sound like he grudgingly did that. Also, it is my understanding that bisexuals are capable of being monogamous, no matter who or what gender they end up with.
Pearl is offline  
Old 08-14-2012, 08:18 PM   #206
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
I actually feel badly for him - think he has a lot of self-esteem issues.
Same here. And despite his careful framing of the story, the main impression I was left with was of a man with an atypical gender expression who was judged, tormented and ostracized by peers for it, internalized their perceptions, and still struggles with it. ("When I stepped outside of my mothers’ trailer, I was immediately tagged as an outcast because of my girlish mannerisms, funny clothes, lisp, and outlandishness...I befriended people rarely and alienated others easily...When I got to college, I set off everyone’s “gaydar” and the campus LGBT group quickly descended upon me to tell me it was 100-percent certain I must be a homosexual...Though I am hard-working and a quick learner, I have trouble in professional settings because co-workers find me bizarre...")

But what's completely unconvincing to me is his defeatist--painfully, piteously defeatist--rationalization that growing up without a father made him "destined to exist as a social outcast." It isn't remotely typical for men who grew up never having a father around to lisp, have "outlandish" "girlish" mannerisms, wear "funny" clothes, and as adults read to their coworkers as "bizarre." Sure, a minority of them do--and so do a minority of men who grew up in nice, normal, Chick-Fil-A-approved families with dads who tried as hard as any others to teach their "weird" sons how to act like proper boys. IF there's any "blessing," as he puts it, that gay men (or perhaps better, gender-atypical men) who did grow up in such families received that he didn't, maybe it's just that that made it that much harder for them to evade the pain of taking ownership of who they are by compartmentalizing and attributing the most despised parts of themselves to some external force (Mom, Satan, campus LGBT group...).

I also found it very strange how little detail he was willing to offer about his upbringing, considering how much he wants to pin on it. Was his mother closeted? Was he pressured to keep her relationship and its place in his own social life a secret ("People in our community didn’t really know what was going on in the house")? Why did she spend 15 or so years (??--again, he's curiously vague as to the timeframe) raising her son as a single mother during the week, then bringing him along on weekends to "a trailer tucked discreetly in an RV park 50 minutes away from the town where we lived"? Would anyone describe such an arrangement as "heterosexual parenting" had the mother's love interest been a man instead?

Finally--and with all due acknowledgment of the fact that I know absolutely nothing about his wife or what his relationship with her is like--I cannot help wondering how she felt and what she thought when she read this:
Quote:
As a man, though I am bisexual, I do not get to throw away the mother of my child as if she is a used incubator. I had to help my wife through the difficulties of pregnancy and postpartum depression. When she is struggling with discrimination against mothers or women at a sexist workplace, I have to be patient and listen. I must attend to her sexual needs. Once I was a father, I put aside my own homosexual past and vowed never to divorce my wife or take up with another person, male or female, before I died. I chose that commitment in order to protect my children from dealing with harmful drama, even as they grow up to be adults.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 08-14-2012, 08:25 PM   #207
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,715
Local Time: 02:28 AM
Ooh, yeah, that last part is very strangely worded.

Quote:
As a man, though I am bisexual, I do not get to throw away the mother of my child as if she is a used incubator. I had to help my wife through the difficulties of pregnancy and postpartum depression. When she is struggling with discrimination against mothers or women at a sexist workplace, I have to be patient and listen.
I don't care if you're straight, bi, or gay, I would presume any man worth their salt would be, should be supportive of the women in their lives who go through any of those things.
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 08-14-2012, 08:47 PM   #208
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,390
Local Time: 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland


Finally--and with all due acknowledgment of the fact that I know absolutely nothing about his wife or what his relationship with her is like--I cannot help wondering how she felt and what she thought when she read this:

It's so out of te Exodus "ex-gay" handbook it's painful.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-14-2012, 08:50 PM   #209
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,390
Local Time: 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel

I don't care if you're straight, bi, or gay, I would presume any man worth their salt would be, should be supportive of the women in their lives who go through any of those things.


For some, heterosexuality must be endured. Remember, we have 5,000 years of history to live up to.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-14-2012, 09:12 PM   #210
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
It's so out of te Exodus "ex-gay" handbook it's painful.
There is a special place in Hell for those people.
martha is offline  
Old 08-14-2012, 11:33 PM   #211
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,390
Local Time: 03:28 AM
I feel for those men.

Then one's at the top, however, all closet cases themselves, those are the ones who are the true bad guys.

And, sadly, the biggest victims.

There are bullies all over the world. It's not surprising to me that gays are mocked, beaten, shamed, and taunted. But being a bully only runs so deep. Jesus will only help you care so much.

To hate gayness so much that you reach out and sell this snake oil called Exodus ... don't tell me for a second that people like Dobson, Reikers, et al, aren't trying to fool themselves first.

Only a gay man could hate another gay man so comprehensively.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-14-2012, 11:42 PM   #212
Blue Crack Supplier
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,555
Local Time: 12:28 AM
I guess I never think of them as gay themselves. It doesn't occur to me that anyone would think like that. It's hard for me to even articulate thoughts on that. (Especially late, on a phone.)

It's so sad.
martha is offline  
Old 08-15-2012, 01:08 AM   #213
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,715
Local Time: 02:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
For some, heterosexuality must be endured. Remember, we have 5,000 years of history to live up to.
Oy. *Shakes head*

Sigh. Yeah, I'm with martha on this. It's so fucking depressing and insane that that crap mindset is allowed to spread the way it does. I will never understand how someone can look at the anti-gay mindset and find it reasonable and worth supporting. Ever.
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 08-15-2012, 02:39 AM   #214
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
To hate gayness so much that you reach out and sell this snake oil called Exodus ... don't tell me for a second that people like Dobson, Reikers, et al, aren't trying to fool themselves first.

Only a gay man could hate another gay man so comprehensively.
Well in Rekers' case there's some pretty suggestive evidence for it, right? The episode where he was photographed with a "travel assistant" hired from a rent boy website, who later told reporters one of his jobs was giving Rekers genital "massages." (Rekers was a founder of the Family Research Council.) Then there were the two Exodus founders who left the group, divorced their wives, and had a commitment ceremony. And the Exodus chairman who was fired after being photographed at a gay bar flirting with other patrons under a fake name. It could almost be funny if it weren't for the damage they'd done to other gay people. And themselves.



Re: the Regnerus study--the one good thing about it is that it's based on national probability sampling, meaning that in principle the findings could be generalized to the population at large. No prior studies of same-sex parenting have attempted that (of course, having huge grants from conservative think tanks--primarily the Witherspoon Institute, from which Lopez's article is taken--helped Regnerus tremendously in this regard, but still it sets a good precedent). The problem, like Irvine said, is that the study isn't in fact about same-sex parenting at all--rather it compares children from intact biological families ("IBFs"), a specific family structure, with children of a parent who had at least one same-sex relationship at some point during their childhoods, regardless of what family structure(s) the children experienced. Only 2 subjects in his study were raised for their entire childhoods by two mothers, and none at all were raised for their entire childhoods by two fathers. Only 23% of the subjects with a mother who'd had a female partner had lived with their mother and said partner for 3 or more years, and only 2% of the subjects with a father who'd had a male partner had lived with their father and said partner for 3 or more years. Etc., etc. ... In the end, if this study could be said to show anything, it's that children of a divorced/single/remarried etc. parent who had at least one same-sex relationship during their childhoods (which according to Lopez is "bisexual parenting," a category Regnerus never mentions) turn out to have remarkably similar outcomes to children of divorced/single/remarried etc. parents who never had any same-sex relationships. Well whaddya know!
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 08-15-2012, 08:31 AM   #215
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,390
Local Time: 03:28 AM
Rekers, yes, there's evidence and photos that he had hired "Lucien" from rentboy.com to help him "carry his bags" on a trip across Europe. and not to pull out the whole "i know people who know people ..." but i do know someone who has done sound for interviews/documentaries in Colorado Springs with Dobson, and said his gay vibe is palpable. but who knows, right?

the Regenerus study is particularly insidious.

it's a hideous thing to attack families in such a way.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-15-2012, 11:39 AM   #216
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 03:28 AM
Quote:
During a raid on a porn cinema in Beirut's Bourj Hammoud district on July 28, police arrested dozens of men who were then subjected to invasive anal exams to provide evidence of homosexuality, Lebanon's The Daily Star writes.
The raid sparked fierce criticism from physicians, politicians and in the media. "
It's the republic of shame," an anchor of the of the privately-owned Lebanese Broadcasting Corporation (LBC) said during the network's nightly broadcast on July 31.
According to the BBC, the anchor's protest was picked up and quickly echoed via social networking sites.
Lebanon's 'Homosexuality Exams' Come Under Fire

Sad that gay people are being treated like this in some parts of the world. Although on a bright note, its good to see gay groups daring to be so public in a very conservative region. Even though they can be arrested, I think its really brave of them to be who they are and be so public about it.
Pearl is offline  
Old 08-15-2012, 12:51 PM   #217
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
, and said his gay vibe is palpable.
How dare you!



financeguy is offline  
Old 08-16-2012, 02:20 PM   #218
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 08:28 AM
I don't know what exactly went on in this man's mind, but I think we can all agree it's a sad day for everyone when someone attempts mass murder under some delusion of serving social justice.



I doubt this thread is the place for extended discussion of this incident (which there may be no need for, since thanks to a heroic security guard no one was gravely injured or killed) but it ought to be acknowledged here IMO.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 08-16-2012, 03:51 PM   #219
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,390
Local Time: 03:28 AM
the FRC is blaming this incident on the SPLC for calling them a "hate group."

he also had 15 Chik-fil-a sandwiches in his backpack.
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 08-16-2012, 04:09 PM   #220
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 08:28 AM
Par for the course, SPLC's not a gay rights group so they're the perfect target for a slippery-slope 'culture of hate' argument. Like blaming the Catholic Church for an abortion clinic shooting, and about as productive.

I'd guess the sandwiches were part of some sick intended 'delivery' conceit, but I don't think authorities have commented on that yet.
__________________

__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×