Same-Sex Marriage General Discussion Thread

[deep]

you think? or was it all just more chess playing?

i have no idea.

I am looking at 3 different ways


1. Obama just did the right thing not the easy thing, better to be a one term-er with integrity, that a 2 term-er without a backbone.

2. this got away from him, his people were marching ahead without him,
better to run in front, as the leader.


3. this was planned and has been completely orchestrated, his crack team have done a lot of internal polling. This is his best and strongest move. The Ron Paul, libertarian supporters are the most passionate people in this years election, they have good numbers, and with a strong candidate like Gov Johnson from NM, they could be the deciders, just like the Green party supporters were in 2000. Obama makes his claim for the passionate youth vote, doesn't cede it to the Libertarian.

 

[digitize]

Now the youth vote will have to decide whether this or legalized pot is more important!

 

[deep]

they know Johnson can't win
and Obama can
many said there is no difference between Gore and Bush
many say there is not much difference between Wall Street Obama and Wall Street Romney, well now there is one clear delineation.

 

[deep]

so here is the (one) list of toss-up states

Arizona (11)
Colorado (9)
Florida (29)
Iowa (6)
Missouri (10)
New Hampshire (4)
North Carolina (15)
Ohio (18)
Virginia (13)

I can see where pro gay marriage can hurt
and no real clear cases where it is a plus, except NH, some may say Iowa, but when the people vote
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2010-11-03-gay-marriage-iowa-election_N.htm

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

If Obama coming out for gay marriage is going to cost him this election, well we are more f'ed than we ever thought possible.

 

[Canadiens1131]

 

[BoMac]

When President Obama was born his parent's marriage was illegal in 22 states.

The world only spins forward.

 

[Irvine511]

When President Obama was born his parent's marriage was illegal in 22 states.

we should remember this whenever people talk about the "will of the people" or "states rights" or "0-33."

 

[deep]

In N C it is legal to marry your first cousin, today.
As long as the cousins are opposite sex.

 

[cobl04]

it's poetic that the first black president becomes the Abraham Lincoln of gay rights.

i think this is red meat for both the bases, however, in the places where it could really affect GOP turnout will likely be in states Obama was already going to lose. it won't change anyone's mind about Obama, it just inspires people for whom this issue is important to come out and vote. if NC and VA are close again, perhaps it is the difference. but this is also months in advance of

What does that Lincoln comment mean?

I think I read philsfan saying he would register to vote if Obama came out in support.

It's heartwarming.

Santorum's response talked about the "real world consequences". I tweeted him asking what they would be, and am just waiting for a reply. Will post back when I get one.

 

[LemonMelon]

What does that Lincoln comment mean?

The implication is that Obama is speaking in favor of a minority in much the same way that Lincoln did for African Americans, so Irvine is equating the two.

 

[Irvine511]

I will expound when in off a mobile device. I am not comparing slavery to SSM. It was a turn of phrase that I came across an thought was nice.

 

[LemonMelon]

I didn't say that you equated slavery and SSM, rather that the two presidents had opportunities to speak on behalf of a minority and took them.

If you meant something else, please do say so, I didn't mean to misrepresent you.

We who know the historical context of Obama's remarks notice the obvious political gains/risks involved in it, but I think this will be a moment placed in history books and remembered quite fondly without a great deal of cynicism. I also fully agree that this is more likely to unite his base than significantly alienate swing voters. Overall, a good move and I'm proud of the man.

 

[Irvine511]

Not at all. I was just clarifying for myself, nothing to do with your post, which was pretty accurate.

 

[Irvine511]

Got this "email" from Obama, which explains it well:

I've always believed that gay and lesbian Americans should be treated fairly and equally. I was reluctant to use the term marriage because of the very powerful traditions it evokes. And I thought civil union laws that conferred legal rights upon gay and lesbian couples were a solution.

But over the course of several years I've talked to friends and family about this. I've thought about members of my staff in long-term, committed, same-sex relationships who are raising kids together. Through our efforts to end the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, I've gotten to know some of the gay and lesbian troops who are serving our country with honor and distinction.

What I've come to realize is that for loving, same-sex couples, the denial of marriage equality means that, in their eyes and the eyes of their children, they are still considered less than full citizens.

Even at my own dinner table, when I look at Sasha and Malia, who have friends whose parents are same-sex couples, I know it wouldn't dawn on them that their friends' parents should be treated differently.

So I decided it was time to affirm my personal belief that same-sex couples should be allowed to marry.

I respect the beliefs of others, and the right of religious institutions to act in accordance with their own doctrines. But I believe that in the eyes of the law, all Americans should be treated equally. And where states enact same-sex marriage, no federal act should invalidate them.

 

[LemonMelon]

A more general, probably stupid question, I'm not terribly well-read in this topic so I felt I needed to ask.

Where do same-sex marriages typically take place? With so many churches standing adamantly against the concept, I can't imagine ceremonies often happen there. Are they done in homes, courthouses? I know of some pastors who would marry a same-sex couple, but most would not. I personally would be very comfortable marrying a same-sex couple in my church because I feel that love and commitment is something very Christian in nature and to exclude them would be hypocritical, but this isn't a view commonly held by Christians. My father is fully in favor of same-sex marriage, but not in a religious setting.

Just kind of blows that same-sex couples can't always have the traditional ceremony, although on a practical basis I can't deny the religious freedom of those who wish not to marry them.

 

[Irvine511]

I've only been to one same-sex wedding, and know another couple who is planning one. The legal stuff is taken care of ata courthouse, and one couple married in a public square with many other couples immediately after the law changes in Massachusetts.

The others take place at any venue that holds weddings, just like any straight couple.

 

[corianderstem]

I went to one performed outdoors at Old World Wisconsin, just like many other plain ol' straight couples. It was a really lovely ceremony in many ways.

 

[digitize]

If my Facebook news feed is any indication (probably 90% of my Facebook friends are under the age of 23), then Barack Obama has definitely managed to get the youth vote excited through this. I'm kind of getting sick of all of the posts praising him today.

 

[cobl04]

So as someone who only has a very basic knowledge of American politics... what does this mean? Will Obama legalise gay marriage across the nation if re-elected? What role do the individual States play in this? If they can pick and choose whether they'll legalise it or not, does that man Obama's stance means absolutely nothing (strictly politically speaking there. It's huge for homosexuals!)? And if that's true, then when does federal law override state law in the USA?

 

[digitize]

So as someone who only has a very basic knowledge of American politics... what does this mean? Will Obama legalise gay marriage across the nation if re-elected? What role do the individual States play in this? If they can pick and choose whether they'll legalise it or not, does that man Obama's stance means absolutely nothing (strictly politically speaking there. It's huge for homosexuals!)? And if that's true, then when does federal law override state law in the USA?

In terms of short-term (ie, through the end of Obama's second term, if such a thing happens) policy, it means next to nothing. Obama stands a very good chance of being re-elected, but the chances of both the House and the Senate having Democratic majorities is slim to none. And if they were, Republicans would surely filibuster any gay marriage legalization legislation in the Senate. It would take sixty Senate Democrats to overcome that... I don't think that's even mathematically possible at this point. And this is all assuming that all Democrats in Congress would support gay marriage legalization legislation, which is absolutely not true. Even a proponent of gay marriage would possibly hesitate to actively support pro-gay marriage legislation for political reasons... there's no way that Obama will even try to get the Democrats to do this. But, magically, if he did, if it passed the Senate and the House, then there would be constitutional issues. A bill forcing states to recognize gay marriages... who knows what the SCOTUS would do with that? In a very literal reading of the Constitution, I can see how it would be considered unconstitutional. DOMA also has its own major constitutional issues (the Constitution says that states must recognize each others' contracts; DOMA tells them that they don't have to, if one views marriage as a contract), but just about everything passed nowadays (and in the past couple of centuries, under both Democrats and Republicans) is more or less unconstitutional under a strict (Ron Paul-esque) reading, so it really just depends on the political leanings of the justices on the court (for the record, I happen to think that the Constitution could stand to be replaced, but probably half of America think that it is Divinely Inspired™, so that won't happen).

States could individually legalize gay marriage if they chose to. This won't affect that in any way.

In theory, a federal law always overrides a state law, or even a state constitution/constitutional amendment. However, that's assuming that the federal law gets upheld as constitutional. A lot of times, when the federal government would be in conflict with a state government, it's in a realm where the federal government probably wouldn't be able to legislate.

 

[cobl04]

So in layman's terms, it's nigh impossible for it to become a federal law, but the individual states can legalise it of they want?

If an Aussie sees this, can the same happen here? Could, say, Victoria and NT legalise it, even if it's not federal law?

 

[digitize]

So in layman's terms, it's nigh impossible for it to become a federal law, but the individual states can legalise it of they want?

Yep... really, in layman's terms, absolutely nothing whatsoever has changed. A certain private citizen has declared that he, personally, is in favor of same sex marriage. That private citizen just happens to live at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

 

[cobl04]

Still pretty cool though!

 

[digitize]

I'll certainly take it. It's bolder than I expected, although I'm not silly enough to think that it wasn't a very calculated move. It does make Obama look less like a stale politician.

 

[Irvine511]

Still pretty cool though!

Yes. The point is that it's great to have someone express support even if nothing can actually be done at the moment. It's difficult to describe how emotional this is, because it's not quite what one might think ... I don't stare out the window at the rain and sigh and wish to be married, nor do I spend days imagining a dashing husband or walking down an aisle or whatever, it's more the recognition that, "there is nothing wrong with you, you have worth and value as much as anybody else, you are not unmentionable, an embarrassment, a topic to be avoided. You are welcome to fully participate in cultural and family life as the gay person you are, and in the relationship you are in." for a group of people who are subjected to a very public denigration even when respectfully submitted (as, say, INDY has done ... And it can be hard to fully describe the issues with self worth that gay people, particularly those 40 and up, have gone through.

And you often go through this alone -- many times, the biggest bullies are one's own family. And thats different from race or religion in that you'd in theory have your family to fall back on when subject to discrimination Through the denial of marriage rights, a message is sent that your core being -- your sexual and romantic desires, as well as the desire for simple companionship -- is flawed , defective, embarrassing. And it's not so much marriage in and of itself that's the emotional part, but the deliberate denial of it. Rights are incredibly important on a practical level, but the verbal support of the president matters almost as much, and makes it that much more inevitable.

 

[cobl04]

well said sir

 

[deep]

thank you for taking the time to write that
thank you for bearing your deep personal feelings

I don't understand how any decent human being can read that and then say,

whatever

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Well said, Irvine . I'm really proud that we've got a president out there who gets it and will show his support.

digitize's post made me all cross-eyed. This is an issue that really should not be that complicated, but unfortunately, the post is spot on and our government will feel the need to MAKE it complicated because some people are stupid.

on a practical basis I can't deny the religious freedom of those who wish not to marry them.

And this is the thing that's so funny-nobody is trying to make all churches marry gay couples. That would violate our separation of church and state (heeeeey, see where that bodes well for the more religious out there?!). I don't know if that's what some religious people are afraid would start happening if gay marriage were made legal or what, but...you can decide who you wish to marry or not marry in your church. It'd be fantastic if all churches married gay couples and none were turned away, but it is up to each individual church to make that choice.

The state or federal governments denying people that option, though, that is beyond fucked up. Government shouldn't endorse discrimination.

so here is the (one) list of toss-up states



I can see where pro gay marriage can hurt
and no real clear cases where it is a plus, except NH, some may say Iowa, but when the people vote
Iowa ousts 3 judges after gay marriage ruling - USATODAY.com

There have been some supporters of that psycho Vander Plaats and his group, but I have heard many more people here oppose the removal of those judges than I have heard show support. And that article was from 2010, and gay marriage is still legal here. Whether or not an anti-gay rights group will try and get something on the ballot to change that this year, I don't know. The western half of my state is more conservative, the eastern half is more liberal, and has many more of the bigger cities in it. So how that would balance out in an election, I don't know.

But overall, I think most of my fellow Iowans aren't too bugged about gays being allowed to marry here. I've yet to hear of a mass protest. Plus, a young man from here recently wrote a book about his two mothers and has testified to the importance of gay rights, so we've got some people fighting the good fight here.

Loved the speech from Obama shared here. Particularly this part:

Even at my own dinner table, when I look at Sasha and Malia, who have friends whose parents are same-sex couples, I know it wouldn't dawn on them that their friends' parents should be treated differently.

Funny how kids don't get as wrapped up in this stuff the way adults seem to.

 

[ladyfreckles]

If my Facebook news feed is any indication (probably 90% of my Facebook friends are under the age of 23), then Barack Obama has definitely managed to get the youth vote excited through this. I'm kind of getting sick of all of the posts praising him today.

Santorum is too easy to hate.