Same-Sex Marriage General Discussion Thread

[corianderstem]

I lost you at the second Americans ...

 

[BoMac]

New Jersey senate OKs gay marriage bill – USATODAY.com

Washington gov signs gay marriage bill into law – USATODAY.com

One by one they all fall down.

 

[Caleb8844]

This might be a dumb question, but I'm curious: around the globe, is America seen as more or less accepting of gay marriage?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Woo to Washington state and New Jersey .

This is starting to feel like a guessing game: What state will be next?

 

[Irvine511]

This might be a dumb question, but I'm curious: around the globe, is America seen as more or less accepting of gay marriage?

globally, we're way ahead of most. as western nations go, we seem to be a bit behind, say, parts of Western Europe and Canada, but so far ahead of Australia and Central Europe. Argentina and South Africa also have marriage equality.

so we're pretty good. but our size makes us less nimble than others -- you won't find a place in the western world more gay friendly than, say, San Francisco; but then, there's rural Wyoming.

 

[Irvine511]

Woo to Washington state and New Jersey .

This is starting to feel like a guessing game: What state will be next?

Maryland and Maine and Illinois.

 

[Canadiens1131]

 

[moiph]

Washington state legalized it! I am proud to live here.

 

[Dfit00]

why must the right of some americans to discriminate against other americans be crushed by the people all those americans elected to make laws to govern said americans?

Most laws apply to a general sense and are not necessarily applied in a fair fashion.

Take drinking age for example, lowering the age of 21 to 18 arguing that if kids are old enough to go to war and die they should also be able to drink and die from drinking too, if they wish. Due to the small portion of teenagers under 21 who got drunk and died, caused accidents and higher insurance premiums, etc. then the law applies to all teenagers and generalize that all teenagers under 21 are irresponsible, when the reality is that they aren't.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Maryland and Maine and Illinois.

Sounds good.

Illinois would be great if for no other reason than it'd be nice to have another state here in the middle of the country supporting us. Iowa's all alone right now "middle"-wise, all the other states that legalized this are on the western and eastern ends of the country !

Awesome quote from Jon Stewart there . Christians here in the States who complain about "persecution" should go talk to their fellow Christians in the Middle East right now. I'm sure those guys would have a LOT of sympathy for U.S. Christians' plight.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

TRENTON, N.J. — Gov. Chris Christie has followed through on his promise to reject a bill allowing same-sex marriage in New Jersey by quickly vetoing the measure Friday and renewing his call for a ballot question to decide the issue.

The veto came a day after the state Assembly passed the bill. The state Senate had passed it on Monday. Christie, a Republican who opposes same-sex marriage, had vowed "very swift action" once the measure reached his desk.

In returning the bill to the Legislature, Christie reaffirmed his view that voters should decide whether to change the definition of marriage in New Jersey. His veto also proposed creating an ombudsman to oversee compliance with the state's civil union law, which same-sex couples have said is flawed and promotes discrimination.

"I am adhering to what I've said since this bill was first introduced – an issue of this magnitude and importance, which requires a constitutional amendment, should be left to the people of New Jersey to decide," Christie said in a statement. "I continue to encourage the Legislature to trust the people of New Jersey and seek their input by allowing our citizens to vote on a question that represents a profoundly significant societal change. This is the only path to amend our State Constitution and the best way to resolve the issue of same-sex marriage in our state.

"I have been just as adamant that same-sex couples in a civil union deserve the very same rights and benefits enjoyed by married couples – as well as the strict enforcement of those rights and benefits," the statement continued. "Discrimination should not be tolerated and any complaint alleging a violation of a citizen's right should be investigated and, if appropriate, remedied. To that end, I include in my conditional veto the creation of a strong Ombudsman for Civil Unions to carry on New Jersey's strong tradition of tolerance and fairness."

 

[anitram]

Gubernatorial activism.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I can't imagine voting on anyone's right to get married, a right I have just by virtue of being born straight.

I don't feel in any way deprived that gay marriage was legalized in my state and I never got to vote on it.

 

[INDY500]

Gubernatorial activism.

The executive branch vetoing an act of the legislative branch = a republic

The governor asking that the law be decided by a vote of the people = direct democracy

The courts assuming to be above all of that = judicial activism

 

[PhilsFan]

The executive branch vetoing an act of the legislative branch = a republic

The governor asking that the law be decided by a vote of the people = direct democracy

The courts assuming to be above all of that = judicial activism

Abolish the courts then? Why don't we just have people vote on everything?

 

[Irvine511]

I'd like to know what people do and do not get to vote on directly. Seems awfully arbitrary.

I'd also like to know where the Right is going to move the goalposts next.

 

[PhilsFan]

Liberal = Activist = Secular = Progressive = Evil

It's simple mathematics.

 

[maycocksean]

I'd like to know what people do and do not get to vote on directly. Seems awfully arbitrary.

I'd also like to know where the Right is going to move the goalposts next.

I'm sure judicial activism on the subject of abortion would be just fine. Amirite, INDY?

The point is,all of us are being hypocrites when we insist that this all about some pure loyalty to Constitutional integrity. It has everything to do with the issues on the table and I think we'd all be better served if we just acknowledged that instead of playing Constitutional Holier Than Thou.

 

[deep]

Bridgewater State College Student Assaulted Over Gay Marriage Article � CBS Boston

‘Do you write for The Comment?’ She said, ‘yes’. ‘Did you write this piece?’ ‘Yes,’”

Then it got violent. “She was hit on the side of the head with a punch.”

 

[PhilsFan]

That's no good for anyone.

 

[Irvine511]

But I thought there was no animus towards gay people? I thought it was all about havin' beliefs 'bout one man and woman and all that. And that's all. Just beliefs, you know?

So confused.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

This is the thing that struck me about the NJ decision here:

"I have been just as adamant that same-sex couples in a civil union deserve the very same rights and benefits enjoyed by married couples – as well as the strict enforcement of those rights and benefits," the statement continued. "Discrimination should not be tolerated and any complaint alleging a violation of a citizen's right should be investigated and, if appropriate, remedied. To that end, I include in my conditional veto the creation of a strong Ombudsman for Civil Unions to carry on New Jersey's strong tradition of tolerance and fairness."

Translation: I want gay people to be able to do the exact same things straight people can do. They just have to call it something else.

Oh, and to the person who punched that girl over her article-how mature! You've really convinced me of your point of view now!

 

[Irvine511]

interesting stuff here. make of it what you will. i'd put it in the Whitney thread in B&C, but that ship seems to have sailed. and though it would be impossible to say that homophobia killed Whitney Houston, just as well as it's impossible to say that Bobby Brown killed Whitney Houston, it does seem to be true that even the fear of even gay rumors was a contributing factor to her by all accounts abusive relationship with Bobby Brown. and this is what we're fighting for -- a world in which people can be who we are, and that includes straight people who are victims of homophobia as well.

21 Feb 2012 02:58 PM
Like A Natural Woman



I happened to meet Peter Tatchell, the legendary and vocal international gay rights activist, last week in London. In the 1990s, he had publicly challenged my book, "Virtually Normal," and its advocacy of marriage equality, from the vantage point of the gay left. A decade and a half later, we are on the same page. But he was always an "outer" and I wasn't; and that kept us somewhat at odds. But just as you cannot libel the dead, I don't think you can out them either. And Peter's reminiscence of younger Whitney's closest friend, Robyn Crawford, is a touching one, and I see no reason to disbelieve it:

When I met them, it was obvious they were madly in love. Their intimacy and affection was so sweet and romantic. They held hands in the back of the car like teenage sweethearts. Clearly more than just friends, they were a gorgeous couple and so happy together. To see their love was infectious and uplifting.

Whitney was happiest and at the peak of her career when she was with Robyn. Sadly, she suffered family and church pressure to end her greatest love of all. She was fearful of the effects that lesbian rumours might have on her family, reputation and career. Eventually she succumbed.

The sudden and horribly self-destructive marriage to Bobby Brown surprised many. But until reading Peter's piece, I did not realize that Brown had himself said that Whitney married him in part to put behind rumors of her love for Robyn, to whom she dedicated her albums. He wrote that the marriage was

"doomed from the very beginning. I think we got married for all the wrong reasons. Now, I realize Whitney had a different agenda than I did when we got married. I believe her agenda was to clean up her image, while mine was to be loved and have children. The media was accusing her of having a bisexual relationship with her assistant, Robin [sic] Crawford. Since she was the American Sweetheart and all, that didn’t go too well with her image. In Whitney’s situation, the only solution was to get married and have kids. That would kill all speculation, whether it was true or not."

Robyn wrote a moving tribute after Houston's death, reflecting on its happening around Valentine's Day. These paragraphs leapt out at me:

People thought they had to protect her. She hated that. And that’s what people don’t understand: She was always the one doing the driving ... She was working hard to keep herself together, and I think she felt that if she admitted any feeling of sadness or weakness she would crumble. One time, back when we were young, we were out, we were partying, and I said, "Listen, I have to go. I’m tired. I can’t make it." And she looked at me with her eyes wide and said, “I’ve got to make it.”

And that was Whitney. She could not pick up the phone, and that meant it was too painful. I have never spoken about her until now. And she knew I wouldn’t. She was a loyal friend, and she knew I was never going to be disloyal to her. I was never going to betray her. Now I can’t believe that I’m never going to hug her or hear her laughter again.

We can never know what's in someone's heart. I hope for her sake that Houston wasn't gay and didn't suffer because she couldn't face it - for religious or professional or social reasons, or for reasons within her even she could not understand. Robyn, her assistant, describes a love that could just as well have been profound intimate friendship, rather than full intimacy. But these barriers are more porous for women than many men, and if she was at heart a naturally lesbian woman - as her ex-husband claims - it makes her suffering so much deeper and more important to understand. It reveals the deep toll of suppressing your core emotional identity for the sake of "making it" or simply because of social pressure and shame. Many men and women caught in this vise suffer for it, sometimes unconsciously seek punishment for it, or try to numb it with the pursuit of professional perfection, or rigid religious fundamentalism, or alcohol, or drugs, or pure, unrelenting, soul-punishing denial. It's a horrible way to live - enough, at some level, to make you want to die.

Deep down, I think this was the core tragedy of Michael Jackson. He never felt the validation of unconditional love as a child, as is the case with so many gay kids (whether he was gay or not). I hope Whitney didn't endure the same agony - or worse, once did experience unconditional love and then ran away to punish herself for it for life. Both Jackson and Houston were musical geniuses. But what came through their voices, to me at least, was not just those near-divine moments of joy, but the sincerity of the visceral pain that laced every note.

I pray their pain is over now; and that their wounded souls are being healed by their Father's unconditional love for ever.

The Dish | By Andrew Sullivan - The Daily Beast

who knows if Whitney was gay or bi? it doesn't really matter. what matters, to me, is that she felt compelled to end a profound friendship and enter a bad marriage simply because of the rumors that she could be gay and what that would do to her career, her family, and her church.

more:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/302211/20120221/whitney-houston-robyn-crawford-rumored-lesbian.htm

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/12/whitney-houston-anatomy-of-a-lesbian-rumor.html

 

[yolland]

I do vaguely remember (from my highschool years, late 80s) that she was one of those celebrities there were "rumors" about. I was never a fan, mostly because that kind of music never interested me but I suppose also to some degree because of the princess-y image, which may or may not have been fully of her choosing. But certainly at that time it would've been virtually impossible to maintain that kind of image while also being an out lesbian or bisexual woman, above and beyond the question of how friends and family might respond. (Not that marrying Bobby Brown is likely to help that image either...) Tragic dimension to an already sad story, if true.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I never heard any of the rumors at any point, so that's totally new to me.

But yeah. Agreed. Nobody should ever have to hide anything about themselves just to try and please some group of people. I don't get how some in society think holding that sort of thing in is good for those who have to do it.

If I had a child, I would never want them to be afraid to come to me about anything, or hide who they are from me. I'd consider myself a failure as a mother and a human being if I let that happen.

 

[deep]

I do vaguely remember (from my highschool years, late 80s) that she was one of those celebrities there were "rumors" about. I was never a fan, mostly because that kind of music never interested me but I suppose also to some degree because of the princess-y image, which may or may not have been fully of her choosing. But certainly at that time it would've been virtually impossible to maintain that kind of image while also being an out lesbian or bisexual woman, above and beyond the question of how friends and family might respond. (Not that marrying Bobby Brown is likely to help that image either...) Tragic dimension to an already sad story, if true.

yes, i remember a bit of the rumor-mongering too, and I also was not a big fan. I do believe that at the time Brown had a real bad boy image problem and being with Whitney would have served both of there purposes. I also think that they may have had a 'working relationship' because they both benefited from it until it did not work.

 

[Irvine511]

dear God, another activist judge. appointed by W. Bush.

Another court finds Defense of Marriage Act unconstitutional

Comments (56) By JOSH GERSTEIN | 2/22/12 5:03 PM EST
Another federal judge has found unconstitutional a key part of the Defense of Marriage Act, the federal law which forbids providing federal government benefits to same-sex spouses.

U.S. District Court Judge Jeffrey White, who sits in San Francisco and was appointed to the bench by President George W. Bush, issued the ruling Wednesday afternoon in a case involving federal judicial law clerk Karen Golinski's request for benefits for her female spouse. White said the stated goals of DOMA, passed in 1996 and signed by President Bill Clinton, could not pass muster under a so-called "heightened scrutiny" test or even a lower "rational basis" threshhold.

"The imposition of subjective moral beliefs of a majority upon a minority cannot provide a justification for the legislation. The obligation of the Court is 'to define the liberty of all, not to mandate our own moral code,'" White wrote. "Tradition alone, however, cannot form an adequate justification for a law....The 'ancient lineage” of a classification does not render it legitimate....Instead, the government must have an interest separate and apart from the fact of tradition itself."

White's 43-page decision (posted here) is similar to a ruling from a federal judge in Massachusetts in 2010, who also struck down an aspect of DOMA.

In White's ruling, he also gave an unusual back of the hand to the Chief Judge of the Ninth Circuit, Alex Kozinski, who ruled at an earlier administrative stage of the dispute that federal personnel managers had authority to cover Golinski's spouse as a non-spousal member of her family. White called that reasoning "unpersuasive."

The case is one of those that lawyers hired by Congress defended after President Barack Obama and the Justice Department declined to do so, stating that they believed the statute to be unconstitutional.

Another court finds Defense of Marriage Act unconstitutional - POLITICO.com

 

[PhilsFan]

The concept of an "activist judge" is fascinating to me. It seems like the INDYs of the world think the sole purpose of a judge is to maintain already written laws. If their job is not to analyze laws and make decisions, what the hell is the point?

 

[BVS]

No, he thinks their sole purpose is to uphold his point of view.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

That phrase has been thrown around so much in recent years I don't think anyone even knows what the hell it really means anymore.